Monday, December 14, 2009

PLFM Presents: How to Get Your Ass Fired

A few of our dedicated readers recently alerted PLFM to some drama transpiring over on LiveJournal, and since the source of the drama falls directly in line with our particular subject matter, we're going to re-post the offending email and let you guys take a little peek at exactly what went down.

On that note, put your creep mittens on.

We've covered quite a few stories here on PLFM regarding work relationships gone awry. In extreme cases, the offender blatantly threatens, harasses and stalks our victims. In other cases, however, we come across situations where the male offender readily admits they may have crossed over the line of acceptable workplace behavior, yet feels everything has been completely blown out of proportion.

Today, you'll decide.

Here's the background:

Let's say you find yourself working in a dead-end retail job. In all likelihood, you hate your job and the insufferable morons you have to deal with on a day-to-day basis, but you have mouths to feed, bills to pay, and you don't necessarily want to live in a cardboard box anytime soon.

So you go to your shitty retail job every day, you grin and bear it, and at the end of the night you clock out content you just bought yourself another day of survival until something better comes along.

Then you show up to work one day only to find the following email in your inbox, sent from a certain male co-worker with whom you've only briefly exchanged a few pleasantries:

You really should just close the message and go about your day. This is the kind of letter that you write and then promptly burn. I'm not fond of following the rules so I sent it anyway. Seriously though, this is not going to be an easy message.

You've made an appearance in my dreams twice now. This is not good. You make me uncomfortable enough irl. The second dream was more significant than the first. You were the hero, and you saved my life from some pirates who were after me. I suppose I should be thanking you.

Could you think about... How many conversations have you had with me that weren't in someway work related...1? maybe 2? Even off the clock I think the only real time I've spent talking to you was showing you my ipod...but even that is work related. Even then, I was terribly uncomfortable.

This is because life has taught me that I have no business associating with the pretty people. Even after moving through several churches growing up, I was just never accepted. There isn't anything I can do about my face. It's not my fault. I've extended true efforts of genuine friendship toward people time and time again, only to get treated like a disease.

I can't control my dreams, so you're my only hope. Please stay out. Please?

You didn't accept my 2nd friend request and I can understand. I could be reacting prematurely. Maybe you haven't seen the 2nd one yet. Honestly though, I'm surprised you accepted it the first time. Thank You though. That was a huge confidence builder at a time when I needed it the most.

No one should have to suffer through a letter like this from a coworker. This will be my last communication with you apart from work.

The strong warning at the start of this is because I do not wish to have a discussion about this letter. Especially at work. I'm sorry, if this is has made you terribly uncomfortable. I'm sorry if you hate me.

You are unequivocally everything I've ever liked about any girl I've ever liked. However, You should be thrilled to know that I have no interest in you romantically. I know your name isn't Sarah, does that count for anything? Do you really drive to/from XXXXXXX all the time?

I'm sorry that you read this. However, If you didn't read it, Thank You so very much.


Got it?

Of course, now you're expected to just go out on the floor and work side-by-side with this guy all day long and just pretend you never got the letter.

Sound feasible?

David certainly didn't have a problem with it, so he emailed this exact letter to one of his female co-workers. Unfortunately, she did have a problem with it, and consequently turned the letter over to upper management.

David promptly found his ass fired on the spot.

David didn't take his sudden termination lightly, so he decided to re-post the letter in front of thousands of people on LiveJournal in what appears to be a somewhat hare-brained scheme to garner some sympathy from the masses:

I understand how that could make someone uncomfortable, but after dreaming about her twice I.Was.Freaking.Out.

Store manager is claiming this was harassment, but I can't find anything in hours of reading about various laws that will support this isolated message as harassment.


The thing that sucks the most is when I came back from my lunch I was planning on apologizing to her. I wrote a note on my lunch with only her first name on the front and inside it says "I am sorry"

Instead, I was fired.

Sounds like someone's fishing for a little hug, no?

Needless to say, David's misguided plea for sympathy backfired in an absolutely catastrophic manner. Hundreds of LiveJournal members, male and female, descended upon David's ravaged carcass to literally strip meat from bone. To make matters worse, David slipped up when defending himself and not only admitted that he knew she had a boyfriend, but that he himself has a fiance. Touche!

David now says he deeply regrets sending the email, though we surmise this might have a bit to do with the relentless onslaught of deep and soulful ass-poundings he currently finds himself enduring on LiveJournal, along with the relative lack of ass-slapping he will now likely receive in the confines of his own bedroom.

A few supporters have heroically come to David's aid, claiming this case constitutes just another example of "man-hating" women overreacting to a man's simple overture of fondness for a woman, but the vast majority of participants call it an easy case of sexual harassment in the workplace.

While PLFM found David's initial letter creepy enough to print within the confines of our half-assed blog, we didn't find it nearly as creepy as the idea of pursuing a half-assed, attention-seeking apology note scribbled on the inside of a wrinkled lunch bag.

In the comments section, please feel free to address whether David's letter might have creeped you out, and whether you feel his email warranted an immediate termination.

183 comments:

  1. Eh, I've seen worse....but the whole dream thing? *shakes head* Some people just don't get that THAT kind of thing weirds people out to no end. Kinda like telling some girl you hardly know that you "rubbed one out" to her. I mean...who the hell does that???? Don't tell me...I don't WANT to know.

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  2. You are correct, vampkat, we have seen much worse right here, haven't we? Yeah, the dream thing--not the best way to hit on a girl, particularly while your fiance is waiting at home for you. The e-mail made my skin crawl.

    My first reaction was that maybe we don't need to fire the guy, but then I thought about it: how fucking insincere do you have to be to send this letter, obviously hoping she will give you the time of day, all the while acting like you don't want her to give you the time of day? Give me a fucking break. That's what put me over the edge and on the "fire that motherfucker" side of the fence. Begging for attention, but acting like that's not what you're doing bugs the shit out of me. He was whining, "Please have sex with me, even though I'm not man enough to just ask you out". Oh, and let's not forget what a pain in the ass it must be to work with some needy (incompetent) motherfucker like this. If he can't proposition any more effectively than this, can he really be any good at his job? Now I'm not being fair--sorry.

    Regardless of their relationship circumstances (I know, I know, but consenting adults and all that) if he had just tried to ask her for a drink or lunch AND he could take the inevitable "no (maybe even: no, thank you)" for an answer, I don't think he should be fired. On the other hand, this bullshit, with the disasterous cherry on top of posting the letter on the internet? Well now, he deserves whatever he gets, doesn't he? First attempt to get attention: failed. Second attempt: failed miserably.

    Being fired for being pathetic--that's too bad, and it's tough to put on the line "Why did you leave your last job?"

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  3. I'll keep this short and sweet.

    Question #1: YES
    Question #2: HELL YEAH

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  4. I just completed a course in workplace harassment for my job. This qualifies as harassment. Anything that makes a person uncomfortable with being at work or working with someone constitutes harassment. It doesn't matter that there was nothing blatantly sexual about it, it's still a BIG no-no.

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  5. I dont think I'd have taken it to management. But I'd have told him where to go. He's just weird... I'd have just figured he's another loser...

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  6. If he can write a letter like that to someone he has barely talked to then he's capable of so much more, and I wouldn't have waited around for it to escalate.

    I used to get emails along these lines from a guy at work. It went from emails, which I ignored, to an overt advance. He should have been fired and then roasted for posting the letter on the internet.

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  7. I think it speaks to someone who's obviously fixated, and it feels as if the dreams were just an excuse. After all, of COURSE she had total control over whether or not she could enter his dreams, right?
    Right.
    I've dealt with this kind before, and the simple fact of the matter is that they don't really clock in with reality when the rest of us do. He's hoping secretly that something will happen, otherwise he'd have deleted the message when he was done and considered himself shriven.
    He sounds as if he's not happy with himself or where he was, and he did a stupid thing in the middle of an obsessed mind-set. Funny and freaky for the rest of us, and I'm going to guess the backlash came as a total surprise because he has no idea how the rest of the world perceives, well, anything.
    Thank god he didn't start stalking her. That's another bunch o'hell she probably didn't need.

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  8. I would say the letter is benign but still kinda creepy. That he knows it is creepy makes it just plain creepier. If I had received an e-mail like this I probably would not have shown my boss (although I would have saved it just in case there was a second, a third). From the boss point of view though, yeah I would want to know & yeah one of them would have to hit the road.

    Maybe he should look at getting fired as a gift-it sure beats the hell out of a year of wondering why his hours have been cut, he only get crappy shifts, etc. because that really is the best his boss could have done if she decided she did not want to work with him-which she clearly did not.

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  9. I'm sorry, if this is has made you terribly uncomfortable.

    . . . but apparently not sorry enough to, oh, I don't know, not send her the damn letter in the first place. There was nothing stopping him from 'burning' the letter as he himself said he was supposed to.

    I understand the need for catharsis, truly I do, but it is in fact possible to vent out your feelings about somebody and leave that person out of it. The fact that he felt the need to shove it in her face shows the appalling egocentrism lurking beneath the Nice Guy facade. "You read it and it made you uncomfortable? Well, you should have followed my instructions at the start of the letter not to read it! Serves you right, not doing what you're told."

    He'll probably just use this incident as timber for his cross as he nails himself to it and wails about how misunderstood he is.

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  10. I'd dare to say I'm very tolerant, while his letter would have made me uncomfortable... I don't necessarily think taking it straight to management was the answer.

    What happened to communication??

    I've treaded on the border of sexual harrassment at my job, and simply talking to the individual stopped such harrasement in its place.

    As for thinking that dreaming about her was "creepy" I beg to differ, seriously, who hasn't had a "fond" dream of an actor or someone they fancy.

    I think communication should have been first, then a superior, and THEN management. With repremanding you don't go straight for the F*** you! You start off with, "Be quiet." and progress if need be.

    A bit over the top on her part, a problem that could've been prevented from him from the getgo, but whatever.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I guess that it all depends on your experience with creepy people. Can you guarantee that an attempt to communicate on her part wouldn't have resulted in him accusing her of harassment? Since he said in the email that she makes him uncomfortable irl, any attempt for direct communication on her part would be grounds for him to get her fired if he didn't like how the conversation went.

      Delete
  11. Oh yeah. Definitely creeped out, and definitely deserved termination. Creepy Stalker is Creepy. Also? I cry shenanigans on his claim of having a fiancee.

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  12. From the TOTALLY CLUELESS way he's responding people on Livejournal my suspicion is that all the other times he's spoken to this woman and she's been "OK with it", as he's said, she has been creeped. The fuck. Out. He doesn't seem to have the social skills to know the difference.

    If this was the first instance of creepitude from a guy who was otherwise okay I probably wouldn't have taken it to management, but if this was an escalation of creepitude from someone who had been mildly creeping me out for a while you bet your ass I'd go straight to management with it. And I'm pretty sure that's how this was for the poor letter recipient.

    That said reading the letter has given me a profound case of second-hand creeped-outness. Yech.

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  13. The Crossroads, there are different kinds of sexual harassment, and different levels of creepiness. If you "treaded on the border" of it in your job, I'm guessing you did something like utter an off-color joke. Perhaps the woman in question felt able to approach you and work it out, because she believed you were of good will and willing to listen.

    This guy's letter is not just an off-color joke. It screams CREEPY McCREEPAZOID. Especially the part where he mentions where she drives daily. This isn't just "offensiveness," it's a potential personal threat.

    Also note that the way he worded the letter, everything was her fault: her fault for "making" him dream about him, her fault for reading the letter, her fault if she went to him and said anything about it. Does that sound like a letter written by someone who's willing to work things out?

    Women can't win in this situation. If we don't trust our instincts and protect ourselves, we could be raped, beaten, killed. If we go to the manager, we're "overreacting," "paranoid," "hysterical" — and we're also flighty bitches who are just trying to get men fired because we can.

    It's really hard to get this across to men, because you do not have a lifetime of being warned to fear the opposite sex, the members of whom not being larger, physically stronger, and more aggressive on average than members of your own sex. Nor do you live in a culture that blames men for anything that happens to them. If you Google "rape culture," you can find more material on this.

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  14. Certainly creepy, though I don't know if the miserable pathetic creature deserved to lose his job without at least getting a warning and a chance to pull his head in first. I guess his subsequent behavior demonstrated that he probably shouldn't have been given that chance.

    More importantly, OMG WELCOME BACK WEASEL. We missed you.

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  15. Eh. I'm of two minds. Without a doubt the letter is creepy and manipulative as hell and if it were directed at me, I'd go back to sleeping with a steering wheel lock. However,my idea of what constitutes sexual harrassment is a bit broader, working as I do in male dominated workplaces and a few things go on that probably wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere. (Most recently a workmate in another section obtained my phonenumber from the emergency after hours call register and rang me asking me out to his place for 'drinks' and a 'movie'. This man is currently going through a violent divorce. Think mutual restraining orders, stolen children, rape and spousal abuse allegations, drug allegations....UM, HELL NO. I did tell my boss; he thought it was funny. So far the guy seems to have got the message and backed down, which is good because I spent a good couple of nights cradling my steeringwheel lock as I slept. Shit ain't comfortable.)

    Ultimately, I don't think this letter in of itself would be enough to get one of my own collegues fired but as others have noted, the obsessive, CREEPY, manipulative, sexual and stalkerish aspects of it have all the hallmarks of something about to escalate and fast.

    It's pretty obvious that, if nothing else, this guy has the social skills of a damp brown paper bag and in retail, where the aim is to essentially manipulate the customer into giving you all their money, this would be a serious liability. This guy might have teetering on the brink and simply didn't realise it and the letter was simply the final straw.

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    Replies
    1. He wasn't accused of sexual harassment, just harassment. "Store manager is claiming this was harassment, but I can't find anything in hours of reading about various laws that will support this isolated message as harassment."

      Delete
  16. Defintely creepy letter. Extremely peculiar that he blamed her for showing up in his dreams.

    Fired? Well, I don't know, but I think he definitely should be relocated so he can't work with her or talk with her in the normal course of business.

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  17. I just completed a course in workplace harassment for my job. This qualifies as harassment. Anything that makes a person uncomfortable with being at work or working with someone constitutes harassment. It doesn't matter that there was nothing blatantly sexual about it, it's still a BIG no-no.

    lol america, where courses train expertise in stupidity.
    so a person harasses you whenever they make you uncomfortable? does this include when they make you uncomfortable because they're different (black, talk with a lisp, look or act or smell funny)? how about if it's because they show up in your dreams unwelcome?
    lol, maybe David has case! what a stupid way to police cultural conformity...or a bad definition

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  18. i can't understand how one letter can be harrassment.

    Would he have been fired for saying pretty much what was in the letter to her face? I think not.

    She would have communicated how uncomfortable she was with the topic and that would have been the end of it.

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  19. If we don't trust our instincts and protect ourselves, we could be raped, beaten, killed.

    If you do trust your instincts and protect yourself, you could be raped, beaten, killed.
    Bottom line: you could be raped, beaten, killed.
    Maybe instincts aren't the best answer, mmmkay? No, you never win. Moan be me.
    Manage your security using reason and intelligence. Know that a disproportionate response can also lead to trouble.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Does anyone have a link to the original livejournal post? I am curious to see how he responded to the reader comments.

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  21. Welcome back Weas, we missed you. Thought you were gone for good and found myself with way too much time on my hands

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  22. Not just a man creeping out a woman (and harassing her at the workplace). Probably deserves space on "Emails from Crazy People" too.

    I mean, that guy's a loon if he thinks his dreams have any meaning, or that someone else has any control over them...or that they're an adequate excuse to send such a slimy email to a coworker.

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  23. Yeah, some guy in my class in grade school told me that he had a sex dream about me. I mean, it's one thing to have it, which is creepy to think about already, but why would you TELL me about it? I REALLY don't need or want to know, and I don't think anyone else would either. :/

    So I can totally relate to this story, and I think he deserved what he got.

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  24. I know you're name isn't Sarah. Do you really drive to and from all the time?

    And that right there would be my reason to consult the management. Before then it's just creepy and I would find ways to avoid him. He's followed her and pried into her personal life without her knowledge.

    I'm a fan of working it out between coworkers but this isn't just some guy asking to go out for coffee. The whole letter is weird and vaguely threatening. When it gets to that point it's time to call in someone else. I have my suspicions this isn't the first time. Maybe not with her but I don't doubt the craziness just appeared out of no where.

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  25. I would have gotten his ass fired too. If you "let it slide" it will only escalate into something worse. Anyone who believes otherwise is sadly mistaken.

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  26. The post where he shared his letter is locked. There are caps and comments from the man himself at: http://community.livejournal.com/sf_drama/2652884.html

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  27. One of the problems with a "zero tolerance" harassment policy is that it does not give managers the opportunity to use progressive discipline (ie first offense verbal warning, second offense written up, third offense firing). It means one strike, you're out. This workplace probably had a zero tolerance policy, they are common these days.

    This letter is very, very creepy. The blaming her for showing up in his dreams, the mention of where she lives, the acknowledgement that it is inappropriate but sending the e-mail anyway.

    She was right to show it to her manager. Firing him was probably within the corporate policy - that he was most likely informed of well before he sent an e-mail that he knew was inappropriate.

    Regarding women following their instincts - once I attended a brown-bag lunch on self-defense. One of the points the speaker made was that if someone attacks you then you shouldn't feel bad about hurting them while defending yourself. I was amazed and asked why in the world would anyone worry about hurting their attacker. Almost every woman over 50 in the room said that they would be concerned about hurting someone, even someone that grabbed them in a dark parking lot and attacked them. Generations of women have been programmed that being nice is more important than protecting themselves. That is some serious ignoring of instincts.

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  28. ps My favorite part is that she saved him from pirates in his dream. What a giant pussy.

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  29. Hello!

    The post at LiveJournal contains comments from the guy mentioned, known on there as mindlessdrew. (However, please take note that it is rude to visit his journal directly.) The walmart_employe community post is locked, but has been screencapped and is available in the first link.

    The first post:
    http://community.livejournal.com/sf_drama/2652884.html

    The second post: http://community.livejournal.com/sf_drama/2655638.html

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  30. I would DEFINITELY have taken it to management, and hoped he got fired. If he's crazy enough to write that sort of thing, theres a good chance he's crazy enough to harm me if I either ignore him or confront him on it. My safety is more important than his job.

    I like how he's stated that there will be no further contact from him on the matter, and then follows up to say he wrote an apology note. Keep your story straigh, buddy.

    Ugh ugh ugh what a creeper.

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  31. A lot of men have gotten away with crossing women's boundaries by claiming to be clueless that they crossed the line.

    This obviously crosses several lines. Those aspects have been addressed by others (the creepy factor, the insistence that this is somehow her responsibility, etc.)

    He can argue all he wants that he meant no harm, that it wasn't his intention, blah blah blah. But the truth is, someone's stated intention counts for jack. The craziest, most obsessive guy who becomes violent toward his target may truly and really believe his intentions are good, and that his behavior is justified and acceptable therefore. It means *nothing.* So how far does some guy have to go before someone CAN address it as unacceptable?

    The "I am clueless" card also means nothing. If you're a functional adult, walking among society on your hind legs and everything, sooner or later you are going to have to be accountable for your behavior toward others, and if you haven't learned how to behave, no one else needs to bear the onus of that. If getting fired for your unacceptable behavior is the penalty for it (and it IS appropriate to fire someone for this; it's not like he made some chance comment that might or might not have been creepy), then that needs to be your learning experience as to what is unacceptable. Doing this kind of thing to a co-worker? In what industry could this BE considered anything BUT unacceptable?

    No one is entitled to keep crashing other people's personal boundaries with the excuse they don't know any better, and expect other people to simply excuse it. He's a grown man. If he didn't know better before, he needs to learn so now.

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  32. The note was definitely awkward. I don't know if I would have shown it to a manager and had the guy out of a job though, but I would have avoided him ever after.

    I think what tipped the scale, for me, is the fact that he had a fiancee. The email to his co-worker was totally like, "No girl has ever liked me, they always run screaming from me... except you, you are so perfect, and I am so desperate, and I'm going to try to guilt you into showing me some pity-attention". Um yeah... and that's why he has a girl at home.

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  33. The Crossroads - What happened to communication? What happened was that the creepy letter told her not to talk to him about it.

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  34. To be fair, if she was really creeped out and scared, she was right to take it to management.
    What management decided to do about it is another matter. Firing on the spot does seem a bit extreme. Perhaps have them working different shifts? Day? Departments? He could have been given a stern warning to stay the fuck away from her and any hint of breaking that rule would lead to sacking.

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  35. Look, one can never be too careful. This letter demonstrated how unhinged this guy was, and she was protecting herself. What if he got so upset at one of his bad "dreams" of her that he made up something to get her fired? There's a lot of ways this could have escalated, and I think anyone who would not have alerted management to this would just be asking for more trouble. Note: he is not some naive puppy-eyed victim - he didn't have his box of chocolates and flowers thrown back in his face. He wrote a note that demonstrated he had problems with reality ("Stay out of my dreams. Please?") and I'm glad she had the wits about to her clue someone in to what was happening, and not just take it and hope it'd all go away.

    It never just goes away.

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  36. If you do trust your instincts and protect yourself, you could be raped, beaten, killed.
    Bottom line: you could be raped, beaten, killed.
    Maybe instincts aren't the best answer, mmmkay? No, you never win. Moan be me.
    Manage your security using reason and intelligence. Know that a disproportionate response can also lead to trouble.


    Way to be condescending. Regardless of what women do, we are blamed for every outcome. Didn't trust instincts and something bad happens? Well, you should have, it's your fault. Did trust instincts and something bad happens? You should have known not to trust your instincts. Play by the "rules" (don't wear this, don't go here, don't do that) and something happens, your fault, no matter how insanely limiting those rules all. And at the same time we're supposed to be nice and not hurt anyone's feelings, and if we don't, well, we're just bitches.

    It is not our fault if someone else is a failure as a human being. This guy is obviously not quite right, and this has nothing to do with communication. He's a massive red flag, an obvious Nice Guy, with the potential to turn dangerous.

    This isn't just creepy fantasizing thrown at another person (and what sane, reasonable person does that anyways?) The letter was a threat. And, unlike most other potential attackers, this guy was kind enough to send a fairly clear notice that he's dangerous. She did the right thing.

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  37. His defence of it on the original website is even creepier.

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  38. Yeah, that's a creepy letter alright. I wouldn't even begin to understand why someone would send that out.

    However, I don't believe that he should have been fired for this. I find the harassment laws are too harsh. It was a single letter with (hopefully) no ill intent. He should have gotten a written warning, a transfer to another location, or just a suspension. You know there's something wrong with society when a guy can't express his feelings towards a girl (only once) without fear of being persecuted.

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    Replies
    1. Right, his feelings... I'm unclear about what those feelings are. He said: "I have no interest in you romantically". The creepiness level tends to go up for me on this statement.

      Delete
  39. I don't care what anyone else thinks, that letter was creepy as hell. Obviously telling him it's creepy goes right through his creepy little head, so I say right on to the poor female co-worker who had deal with him. His ass should have been fired.

    All evidence seems to point to the fact that he doesn't get how inappropriate his behaviour is. I don't know what it would take for him to realize that sending letters that A: blame the person for stuff that is clearly NOT their fault & B: mentioning how they get to work daily is NOT OKAY.

    Hopefully this guy gets help before his behaviour continues or, god forbid, escalates.

    And before anyone says oh, baawwww he was just expressing his feelings: NO. Passive aggressive letters that are border-line threatening are NOT expressions of feelings.

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  40. Dear God.

    If he had been friendly and interactive with this girl at work, and they'd known each other well, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was just terribly shy and hamfisted at "communicating his true feelings".

    Something gives me the idea that THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Can't be sure unless his femme fatale turns up with the truth, but methinks there's a back-story of creepiness going on here, which all came out in her approach to management.

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  41. What's not in the letter but is in his other comments is that he had been telling his co-workers how pretty he thought she was for some time before that, so this was not a first offense.

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  42. At my previous job, a coworker with whom I had a passing acquaintance decided to tell my boyfriend that he "hopes he wears a condom" when my boyfriend is with me. This was said in the guise of a helpful friend with the "best intentions". When my boyfriend and I reported it to management on both our teams, the offending jackass only had to go through workplace interaction training. Despite the fact that it's clearly harrassment towards myself AND completely inappropriate workplace conversation. So, quite frankly I am happy as all getout that this wiener got fired because it makes me feel like there is at least a little justice in the workplace.

    Extra bonus: I was a virgin at the time the slanderer made those comments. What a douche.

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  43. Oh hell yes that constitutes sexual harrassment! And yes, I am glad he got fired and is now enduring "soulful ass poundings" from the online community.

    That gave me the willies and reminds me of the "sun guy" from a few pages back.

    Oh, and your half assed blog is not so half assed. I laugh like a crazy person every time I read it--granted I feel like I should shower after some of these entries....

    ReplyDelete
  44. Welcome back, Weasel!

    That letter? Scary. As. Fuck.

    Seriously, anybody who could write that is clearly not operating on the same plane of reality as most of us. Rambling, disjointed, devoid of normal Earth logic, and somehow blaming HER? I would definitely honor his request not to talk to him about it, by taking it straight to my manager. (And getting somebody to walk me to my car when I left work for the next few months. And varying my driving route.) There's a huge difference between "shy and clueless" and "massively fucked-up." This guy is the latter.

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  45. Oh -- and after reading some of the LJ stuff, it turns out that thing about his second friend request is that he unfriended her because he didn't think he could keep from sending her messages telling her how pretty she was. And he TOLD HER that. And then, later, apparently sent her another friend request. Mmm, stalkerrific!

    (Also, he blames his behavior on being from a small town where everyone knows everyone else... again, not our normal Earth logic.)

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  46. Xavier: Awwww, da poor poor menz. How dare these evil bitches feel threatened by observations from men they don't know very well about their driving habits! They should totes put the men's "right" to get laid above their own right to personal safety!

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  47. How do we even know that this is the only thing he did? He obviously has no sense of boundaries, so ha can have been behaving inapropriate befor this. This is his side of the story and it is still extremely creepy!! As for the women, of course she should report him. It is not her job to deal with his problem, or talk him stright or explain the concept of boundaries to him. She does not owe him anything. It is the managers job to decide how this should be handled!

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  48. Firing him was probably within the corporate policy - that he was most likely informed of well before he sent an e-mail that he knew was inappropriate.

    Because we all study our corporate policies and they're not written by legal professionals in their arcane language, right?

    I was amazed and asked why in the world would anyone worry about hurting their attacker.

    That's irrational instinct? Really? Nothing rational about your amazement at all? No rational incompatibility between defending yourself and protecting an attacker from harm due to self-defense?

    Almost every woman over 50 in the room said that they would be concerned about hurting someone, even someone that grabbed them in a dark parking lot and attacked them. Generations of women have been programmed that being nice is more important than protecting themselves. That is some serious ignoring of instincts.

    How do you know it's not instinct? Is that concern rational?

    reason > all

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  49. Way to be condescending. blah...blah... we are blamed for every outcome blah...blah... instincts blah...blah... your fault blah...blah... "rules" blah...blah... we're supposed to be nice...

    That's a bit of cultural baggage, missy! Is reason and intelligence some radical, bizarre, new idea to you? None of the things you wrote about—instincts, ignoring instincts, playing by the "rules", conforming to social expectations—has anything to do with reason. Perhaps instead of flying on automatic, you should exercise that noggin' and work out solutions that serve you better. Is that so strange?

    not our fault...someone...is a failure as a human being...is obviously not quite right...massive red flag...potential to turn dangerous.

    Interesting. Define failure as a human being. Is it 'differing from your social expectations'? Define dangerous, too. I'd like to see you somehow work 'weird letter writing' into it.

    It looks like you're rejecting social conformity in one paragraph and arguing for a form of it here (saying non-conforming behavior raises red flags and is potentially dangerous). Great. Unless you belong in prison (because nothing logically stops you from being a secret Al Qaeda operative and you therefore pose that 'potential danger'), this is not the Nanny State Republic of Be and Think Like Me or You're a Danger to Us All and Shouldn't Be a Productive Member of Society (NSRBTLMYDUASBPMS).

    While businesses have a responsibility to regulate the work environment, I think it's highly inappropriate for them to socially police individuals acting independently outside it (for whom they should not be held responsible). lol America, again, where people drag their personal affairs into everyone's business!

    The letter was a threat...potential attackers...clear notice that he's dangerous. She did the right thing.

    Another interesting interpretation. Define threat. Is it the same as 'potential danger'?

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  50. he had been telling his co-workers how pretty he thought she was for some time before that

    What a horrible offense! That man should be in the slammer.

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  51. I was a virgin at the time the slanderer made those comments.

    I see...so suggesting you are or will be sexually active is slander? How socially progressive and feminist of you!

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  52. Oh hell yes that constitutes sexual harrassment!

    Define sexual harassment. Specifically, define the sexual component of this interaction.

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  53. again, not our normal Earth logic

    Hmm...define 'normal Earth logic'. Somehow, I doubt it consists of actual logic.

    It is not her job to deal with his problem, or talk him stright or explain the concept of boundaries to him. She does not owe him anything. It is the managers job to decide how this should be handled!

    I guess it's not anyone's job to know the difference between work-related and independent action either...

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  54. I guess its not anyone's job to know the difference between work-related and independent action either...

    Actually, if this was sent to or from a work email address, or was composed during work hours then this does count as workplace harrassment.

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  55. Looks like the trolls are back...

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  56. The entire back story is wrong. Almost all other details apart from the letter itself are wrong.

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  57. Actually, if this was sent to or from a work email address, or was composed during work hours then this does count as workplace harrassment.

    That would be true if...
    That's a fun exercise: what if?

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  58. It's definitely unsettling when an oddball you've seen a couple of times and know you are NOT physically attracted to writes you something like that out of the blue. But does it really warrant costing him his livelihood in this terrible economy?

    She couldn't even tell him off--it was a personal thing and she had to take it to a higher and completely irrelevant level where action was clearly unnecessary and excessive.

    This is just a case of a guy who doesn't look like Tyrone Power liking a girl a lot and finally 'fessing up in an anxious OCD email. He was in no way offensive, graphic or sexual, and this is neither workplace nor sexual harassment.

    It seems to me that this is more about some porcelain drama queen who had to endure the horrors of reading a love letter from someone who wasn't one of the Beautiful People.

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  59. I can't believe people are suggesting she should have talked to him first. That sounds like a HORRIBLE idea.

    Also, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing he hasn't gotten any other complaints, and that this was the VERY FIRST complaint he's ever gotten, and was the ONLY reason he was fired. Please remember, everyone, that we're only getting HIS side of the story, and he's an unreliable source. Maybe this was the proof his boss needed to fire him?

    Anyway, uhhh, I'm pretty sure the sort of guy who thinks sending a letter like this to a coworker is acceptable is the same sort of guy who would be able to pick up on signals from women that would scream "LEAVE ME ALONE! AAAAH!" to the rest of us.

    She ABSOLUTELY should have shown this to her boss if it made her uncomfortable, and anyone saying otherwise is grossly irresponsible. It's not her fault her boss canned him, though again, I have a feeling there is way more to the story of his unemployment than we know.

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  60. ATTENTION: IT'S CALLED AN UNRELIABLE NARRATOR. I'M SURE DAVID *THINKS* THE LETTER WAS HIS FIRST AND ONLY OFFENSE, MEANWHILE HIS BOSS HAS WANTED TO HAVE SOLID PROOF TO FIRE HIS CREEPTASTIC ASS FOR MONTHS.

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  61. "Anonymous said...
    Xavier: Awwww, da poor poor menz. How dare these evil bitches feel threatened by observations from men they don't know very well about their driving habits! They should totes put the men's "right" to get laid above their own right to personal safety!"

    I never said that women that feel threatened shouldn't speak up. Nor did I say that women should put men's "right" to get laid above their safety. You're the one that used the word "right," not me (I never thought that actually). I think women should be safety conscious, and it is their right to complain/inform the authorities when threatened. I don't like how the authorities deal with the issue.

    Plus, we all see some (many maybe) women acting/dressing in less then professional manners, and when men react, the women scream sexual harassment (I have seen enough cases in university and work). You can't expect men to behave professionally when women don't either. I never called women "bitches," its rude and unnecessary.

    The point is, women can use the "sexual harassment" card whenever a guy they don't like gives them a little attention. Its important to know where the line is drawn, but with the zero tolerance policy of most companies, there is no line (everything is too much); there is no choice but to keep the fuck away from the opposite (and sometimes the same) sex, unless you're ready to gamble your job.

    Also, notice that I never said that his letter was appropriate; but his firing was going to far (as what the story explains). If he has bothered her more than once in anyway, then he deserves it. If the letter was the first time he mentions this, yeah its fucked up, but he deserves at least a hearing, no a immediate termination.

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  62. Way back, when I was young and starry-eyed, tripping through my first corporate job like Bambi tripping through fields of dewy cubical-shaped flowers, I got stalked by one of the janitorial crew.

    He took to leaving me notes about how much he liked the art in my cubical.

    And--let me see if I can explain this in such a way as to make it clear--you can tell when a note is crazy. I'm an artist, I get notes practically daily on the internet saying people like my art (which is very nice of the commenter to do, and I'm very grateful for the feedback) I DON'T generally get two page handwritten screeds about how they know they shouldn't write me but they can't control their responses.

    THAT is creepy as sin. That's also where this letter goes to seriously weird town. You can say "Dude, I had a dream you saved me from pirates," and that's hardly sexual harassment, nobody would CARE, but you write a screed like that about how hard it is to resist and how she shouldn't read it, and the creep-o-meter buries the needle.

    Same with the stuff I got. Seriously creepy. And I was young and starry-eyed, as I said before, and I didn't want to get this guy in trouble, and he sent more notes (I had never seen this guy or responded in any way to any of them, let me add) and finally took to calling the cubical, where he'd get my co-workers, whereupon he'd get flustered and hang up.

    One of my co-workers was an ex-social worker. By the time he started calling me, she said enough was enough, and dragged me to one of the team leads. I had been feeling bad about perhaps getting this in trouble, but once the (male) team lead saw these letters, he had me down in HR in a heartbeat, with the head of Security telling me that while he could not technically allow me to carry pepper spray in the building, what he wasn't told wouldn't hurt him, and here was a permit to park next to the front door and for god's sake, don't work alone at night.

    Then they sacked the janitor.

    At the time, I felt guilty about that. With the perspective of age, I've realized that I may have been very lucky indeed, and the company acted exactly correctly. Insomuch as I figured in this little drama, I wouldn't have been listed in the credits as "Villain" I would have been listed as "Potential Victim #1."

    'Cos those were creepy letters. Those were letters that set off warning bells. Normal people do not write letters like that. He may have been a harmless weirdo...but he might not have.

    THIS is a creepy letter. If the employee feels guilty about his being fired, I hope it's a lot less than ten years before she realizes just why she shouldn't.

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  63. lol...why am I suspecting that our poor little David is among those troll comments?

    This got linked at sf_d and he's a member there. This guy can never resist the urge to defend himself. He consistently replied to every comment. But now, he can do it no holds barred under the Anonymous cover!! And see all the troll comments replying to every point against him?

    Welcome, David.

    And Xavier - he deserved to be terminated. You side the offender, not the victim. We get it.

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  64. How much you want to bet that every single commenter who thinks the girl 'overreacted' is male?

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  65. I have a hard time believing he hasn't gotten any other complaints, and that this was the VERY FIRST complaint he's ever gotten, and was the ONLY reason he was fired.

    How do you know?

    we're only getting HIS side of the story

    O rly?

    anyone saying otherwise is grossly irresponsible

    lol responsibility...

    offender, not the victim

    lol. Define offender and victim. Circular logic is circular.

    How much you want to bet that every single commenter who thinks the girl 'overreacted' is male?

    How much you want to bet ad hominem? Lrn2logic.

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  66. As a victim of stalking and creepers, this letter would have scared the shit out of me. Why is everyone calling this guy "David" when his name is Andrew? Just wondering.

    I'm willing to bet ALL the troll comments are posted by Andrew.

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  67. I'm willing to bet ALL the troll comments are posted by Andrew.

    And I'm willing to bet everyone on here is the same person, you sick schizophrenic fucks! Stop running a blog, commenting on your posts, trolling yourself, and defending the weird dream letter you wrote to a female coworker. Get a job!

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  68. I'd have definitely turned the letter over to management. What the fuck. I don't know that he absolutely needed to be fired, necessarily, but some serious disciplinary action had to be taken. His letter was creepy as hell and would have made me massively, massively uncomfortable at work.

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  69. Anon 7:15 --

    Um, I define logic the same way most people do: the fundamental principles of reasoning. Would you care to explain to me the logical connection between sending that letter and being from a small town? Because, in the comments on LJ, he has used that as a defense repeatedly, and I'm just not seeing the connection.

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  70. It really isn't a question of whether a given reader here finds his letter creepy or not. If she did feel "uncomfortable" and creeped out by it, then she does have the right to defend herself.

    Reading some of his comments on LJ (thanks for everyone who posted links, by the way!), he is a weird, weird dude.
    Do I, personally, think he sounds dangerous? Not necessarily. Would I completely freak out if I was the one receiving that darn letter? Most likely. And then I would wanna have the right to choose the best way I know to try and defend myself from whatever I suppose may come later.

    I'm all about communication and "talking about it." Yet, I would have absolutely nothing to say to someone who seems to believe that I have control over whether they have dreams about me or not. That person needs to "talk about it" with a shrink, not yours truly.

    Based on his LJ comments, he still doesn't seem to understand what EXACTLY he did wrong.
    And that's cool; his ass got fired, so whether he gets the picture or not, wherever he'll end up working, he's most likely gonna stay away from sending co-workers creepy emails.

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  71. I should clarify, I don't side with the "offender," if thats what he truly is. I don't know enough of the story to declare him an "offender" or not.

    I just have gripes against the way the system works, and how little it takes for a men to get fired for sexual harassment. In any case, not just this moron's.

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  72. Here's an idea, guys: if you don't want to take the risk of getting fired for sexual harassment, don't hit on your work colleagues. Look for dates elsewhere.

    Simple. Easy. No problemo.

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  73. As someone who dated a coworker, it can get pretty complicated and messy. Hopefully Mr. Crazy understands that now.

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  74. Um, I define logic the same way most people do: the fundamental principles of reasoning.

    And what do you think that includes? Logic alone defines a lot less than you may think. Eg, Euclidean geometry (triangles' interior angles add up to 180°) and non-Euclidean geometry (triangles' interior angles can add up to something else) are completely logical but have incompatible conclusions. Logic defines no unique geometry.

    Moreover, it defines nothing about physical reality and less about human interaction. It doesn't define unique social conduct. No social norm/standard is logical. They're all as (il)logical.

    Your request
    Would you care to explain to me the logical connection between sending that letter and being from a small town?
    is pointless. You're supposing there is a logical social standard (which is false), so his conduct must be illogical. It may unsettle you, it may disagree with your suppositions, but that's something else.

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  75. don't hit on your work colleagues. Look for dates elsewhere.

    Don't hit on your school colleagues, either. Simple. Easy. No problemo.

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  76. First letter was fairly creepy. If it was sent to me I would be slightly offendend that someone "loved" me so much and didn't bother to find out that I already had a boyfriend.

    I guess you can't really blame the guy for trying, just because a girl has a bf doesn't mean she's happy with him. But at the same time, that was just way to much way to fast.

    Yes I think he should have been fired for that.

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  77. I would be slightly offendend that someone "loved" me so much

    What part of that letter says love to you?

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  78. Some troll needs to really get a life instead of replying to Every. Single. Post. Ever.

    Anyhow, according to his livejournal posts, this was his SECOND time being fired from the same retail workplace. Drew had already been fired once before because hundreds of dollars worth of video games had disappeared on his watch. I can imagine he was on pretty thin ice and it wouldn't have taken much for him to lose his job, compared with someone who with a spotless employment record at the same workplace.

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  79. I know of a few companies looking for reasons to weed out employees, based on my observations and stories from others. I'm not at all surprised Wal-Mart would be any different. They were probably looking for a reason to fire him, and the idiot gave them a good reason.

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  80. Speaking as a manager--never become an incipient liability problem in an at-will state. I doubt that he was fired for harassment per se, but was instead being fired for more trouble than he was worth.

    It fascinates me that his attempts to mitigate the problem he's causing with his behavior never seem to involve leaving her the fuck alone.

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  81. It fascinates me that his attempts to mitigate the problem he's causing with his behavior never seem to involve leaving her the fuck alone.

    Define attempts. Where are they between the e-mail and management's action in this story? Do you see invisible things? Scary...

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  82. Oh Drew, Is that you? Get out your handy little dictionary and look up Sociopath. That would be you.

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  83. OMG, Weasel, you're back!!!


    I was going to give this dude the benefit of the doubt until I saw he was engaged. WTF? The creep-o-meter redlined right about then.

    I'm even glad to see our lil' Anonymice are back. Merry X-Mas, bitches!

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  84. Anon 4:26: "I was planning to apologize to her. I wrote a note on my lunch with only her first name on the front and inside it says 'I am sorry.'" If his firing prevented the delivery of that little missive, then that's one-up for Wal-Mart by me.

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  85. I'm guessing there is more to the story. I would guess this isn't the first time he did this to a coworker, or maybe was causing other problems in the business. I bet management was looking for a reason to can his ass.

    The problem with these situations is that there is no way to know he'll escalate it until he does. We belittle women for "trusting their instincts" and then blame the for not doing it when they are attacked. I also think that the blame that should be put on management is being placed on the woman. She did the right thing. She didn't call the police, she took it to her boss. It was management that fired him, not her.

    This creates a problem though. I see where companies are coming from with having a zero tolerance policy on harassment but by doing so they place the burden off themselves and onto the victim. I guess in that sense she did have him fired.

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  86. I didn't know Bill Dreimann worked at WalMart. Or is this some other crazy asshat that sounds like him?

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  87. The problem with these situations is that there is no way to know he'll escalate it until he does.

    That's the problem with joining secret terrorist cells, too. You don't know some political dissident will until they do. Let's put you in prison just in case?

    We belittle women for "trusting their instincts" and then blame the for not doing it when they are attacked.

    Oh dear...Is that an echo?

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  88. I think firing the guy was a little extreme. He, along with so many of the men who feature in this series of blogs, is quite likely just socially challenged. If it came down to either the woman leaving, because she wasn't comfortable (and with very good reason) or firing the guy, then yes, the right choice was made, but I'd like to think other options would have been considered.

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  89. Without "trolls" every comment thread would just be a strap-on gangbang of the offender. With them/him the comments get much more interesting.

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  90. You're back! Awesome! I'm glad you didn't vanish from the face of the Internet; I missed your scathing commentaries.

    As for this guy... is he twelve? That letter is disturbing enough that I would have turned it over to management, too.

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  91. This guy reminds me of one of the big bugs in the movie "Mimic" trying very hard to learn how to blend into society. He will never understand why what he did was wrong,because he is totally lacking in empathy, love,and all the many other traits that make us human. Wish I could save a lot of heartbreak for others and squash him like the cockroach he is. Total waste of oxygen.

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  92. This is not just a case of a guy telling an off-color joke or asking out a woman when she's not interested. In those cases, you can simply tell the person that's not appropriate and then only turn them in if they do it again.

    But this was much more than that. No sane person writes something like this. This guy is completely out of touch with reality. When there is a real possibility that the person is criminally insane (and there ARE signs of criminal insanity in that letter), then the worst thing you can do is to confront the person. You have to let some authority figure handle it. She did the right thing. Obviously the boss agreed with her that this was creepy or the guy would not have been fired.

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  93. Kelly,

    Socially challenged?! LOL! I've known a lot of socially challenged people, including myself in my youth. This guy is clearly mentally challenged, not just socially challenged, and most likely dangerous.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Why not communicate with him first? Hmm...
    Well,in my considerable (unfortunately) experience with this type of abnormality attempting to communicate makes things worse. Much, much worse.
    For instance, "You are making me uncomfortable, please leave now" seems to magically translate itself into "NO! don't go! I wanna hear more about how sexy I look in this work uniform while I stock shelves! Oh, and can you ask me some more questions about whether my boyfriend like fucking while I wear this or that type of under clothes? You are so sweet."
    And, "How the fuck did you get this number??!! I'm calling the police, asshole!" Seems to translate into "Gee, a phonecall at 3am just to tell me you were thinking about how sweet I am even though I've only met you twice and have never given you my number? I must be the luckiest girl in the world. Can you call me at 3am every night?"
    Point is, communication is for rational animals. Not people who have no concept of normal behavior in the first place.
    Yes it was inappropriate.
    Yes he should have been fired.

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  95. " I know your name isn't Sarah, does that count for anything? Do you really drive to/from XXXXXXX all the time?"

    Those two sentences crossed the line from 'pathetically socially dysfunctional' to 'threatening and outright scary'. People who refuse to admit that fact are being willfully obtuse, frankly. If the letter was just an innocent attempt by a well-meaning loser to let someone know that he liked them, he NEVER would have said those things.

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  96. He will never understand why what he did was wrong,because he is totally lacking in empathy, love,and all the many other traits that make us human.

    People who do and think different are not fully human...

    But this was much more than that. No sane person writes something like this...blah blah...criminally insane...blah blah...there ARE signs...

    Durr...more echo. Signs? There be augurs here!

    Those two sentences crossed the line from 'pathetically socially dysfunctional' to 'threatening and outright scary'.

    Oh noes! Knowledge. It's a threat!

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  97. The fact that he was immediately fired tells me that this probably wasn't the first problem they'd had with the guy. If he had caused any kind of trouble before, then it was absolutely right to fire him, and I'd be willing to put money on that being where management was coming from with this.

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  98. OF COURSE it's creepy. But it's not sexual harrassment unless they've already had to tell him to stop or if he was doing something more overt.

    I'm sure his intended was thrilled that he got fired, though, because that's enough creepy for a whole store. And even though it may not be for the right reasons, hopefully he'll learn a valuable lesson about shit-you-just-don't-say-at-work. And indirectly, it's good that his most unfortunate fiancee found out what a tool he is.

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  99. The fact that he was immediately fired tells me that this probably wasn't the first problem they'd had with the guy.

    Management doesn't err?

    hopefully he'll learn a valuable lesson about shit-you-just-don't-say-at-work.

    Did he say it at work?

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  100. Has anyone seen the unemployment rate? If you do not fit in as a member of the team, there's no reason for anyone NOT to fire you. After all, they can hire any one of 300 college grads in your place, for the shittiest, most low-end retail job. And any one of them will have better sense than to send Not-Sarah creepy ass e-mails.

    So yeah, David. You got what you deserved. Buy a dream journal and keep that shiz off the Internet!

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  101. The guys name (thanks to LJ) is actually Andrew Poole and he is in OH. Drew, I highly recommend that you look up OH state stalker laws, cos it's pretty much two strikes and you're out. Your bug cover has been blown, and if you contact the object of your fixation again, she has the right to file charges. Wouldn't prison just be so "gay", to quote you?

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  102. Speaking as someone who dealt with a creepy co-worker, stuff like this only escalates.

    The co-worker I was dealing with eventually ended up describing his junk to me, measurements and all. I'm not even sure why... it was nothing to be bragging about.

    Unfortunately he was fired for something completely different before I could lodge a complaint.

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  103. Weird and creepy, maybe, but hardly deserving of getting fired over - I see no harassment there, just a socially inept person in a weird state of mind at the time he wrote that letter. He's fine avoiding her outside of forced work interaction and it doesn't affect either's capacity to do their job.

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  104. I wouldn't feel comfortable working with someone that asked me to stay out of his dreams. Not feeling comfortable does interfere with ones ability to do their job. Trust me on this one. Not to sound like a cheesy ad from the late 80's early 90's but it is sexual harassment and no, no one has to take it.

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  105. Not feeling comfortable does interfere with ones ability to do their job ... it is sexual harassment and no, no one has to take it

    Lawdy, more echo. People are different. You have to take it to function in society or you should entirely stay out of society.

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  106. For 19+ years(yes,I'am older than dirt)I've worked in predominantly male fields such as the USAF and USPS. So you know I've had plenty of experience in dealing with unwanted advances. Hope I was gracious and kind. Have a very narrow definition of sexual harrassment. To me, it is when someone who has power over your career, uses their supervisory position to attempt to gain sexual favors. Now, before Drew thinks I agree with him, I would still have run, not walked, to my superior with this creepy ass letter. I do not think this was sexual harrassment, but something much worse. Drew's not trying for anything as normal and harmless as a little slap and tickle. He wants to control her and make her as uncomfortable as possible. No one has to take the actions of a stalker. And Drew, you are the one who has the problem functioning in society.

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  107. He wants to control her and make her as uncomfortable as possible.

    lol
    Define control and make as uncomfortable as possible. Specifically, how a weird letter outside work does either. Looks like you're trying to coerce him to fit your standards, ironically...

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  108. Oh, I get it. If I can't take the heat I should stay out of the kitchen. How about this?
    There shouldn't be any heat in the first place.
    I don't know about where any of you guys work, but where I work the sign on the door says, "You have the right to a safe work envirnonment." Not, "We and all those employed here can say whatever they like to you and aint shit you can do about it."

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  109. "You have the right to a safe work envirnonment."

    Considering this took place outside the work environment, that's just funny.

    There shouldn't be any heat in the first place.

    Define heat. Is it difference?

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  110. Yes, the letter itself was written outside of work. We all (myself and the people I "echo", guess there are more people that agree with me than with you, huh?) completely understand this. We are not stupid. The letter, which was written outside of work, was written by someone that she works with and has to see every day.
    NO one in their right mind would feel comfortable working with someone that was looking up personal information on them.
    Do you feel like debating the actual issue or would you like to argue semantics some more?
    Option 1 (issue)
    This person wrote a letter that made the recipient feel uncomfortable at work.
    It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if the letter was written in your parents basement or on the moon.
    It made her feel uncomfortable at work. In the workplace. The place at which she performs her job.
    Option 2 (semantics)
    No, heat doesn't mean difference.
    Heat in this context means behavior performed by an individual toward another individual that is inapropriate or otherwise makes the second individual feel uncomfortable.

    Define difference. Does it mean "I can look dig up your personal information and accuse you of entering my dreams on purpose and write you weird letters and otherwise make you wonder if you should start carrying pepper spray and it's alright 'cause, by golly, I'm different!" Is that what it means?

    Or does it mean "Hi! I'm a socially inept retard that got my ass fired for totally freaking out a coworker! And now since I'm unemployed, I can post comments on a blog over and over (debating semantics because I refuse to admit that I might just have some problems and actually debating the issue might bring those problems to light) anonymously so people won't know its the same guy! I'm freakin' brilliant!"

    It doesn't strike you as just a little bit odd that we all think you need some therapy and there is only one of you that thinks you don't?

    Unless in addition to your other psychoses you also have multiple personality disorder.

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  111. guess there are more people that agree with me than with you, huh?
    Ad populum. And the readership here is 'special'/inclined to irrational zeal.

    NO one in their right mind would feel comfortable working with someone that was looking up personal information on them.
    Public knowledge? Lawl. See the blog's next entry.

    would you like to argue semantics some more?
    Never was...

    It made her feel uncomfortable at work. In the workplace. The place at which she performs her job.
    Discomfort? Horrific! Someone bring out awkward turtle!

    If you find everything people do outside work discomforting, then everyone should yield to your preference or lose their job? How grand. You realize that's an argument to impose conformity. Are you trying to cure perceived social ills or create actual ones?

    Heat ... means behavior toward another individual ... inapropriate or ... makes the individual feel uncomfortable. [Cleaned for noise.]
    So if a different behavior causes discomfort, then it is 'heat'.

    Define difference.
    (1) Here (social subject) it means atypical. It includes atypical and not essentially offensive. Weird is not essentially offensive.

    Define make you wonder if you should start carrying pepper spray. Looks like a judgment based on values. If atypical behavior easily alarms you when it's not essentially hostile, then this includes different (see 1).

    "Hi! I'm a socially inept ... same guy!..."
    Lawl. Everyone here is the same guy, so stop pretending you're not, Drew.

    I wouldn't ask you to define anything if you appeared to use sensible, common definitions.

    It doesn't strike you as just a little bit odd...
    No. If American can elect the same obviously incompetent president twice, then no. Wrong majorities are common, especially vocal ones.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Are you calling me Drew?
    Seriously?
    I'm not the one who thinks stalking coworkers is socially acceptable behavior.
    You obviously do think it is so I would argue that you are more Drew like than I am.
    And you know what?
    I am so so so happy that your ass got fired over that freaky letter.
    Enjoy your unemployment fuck face.

    ReplyDelete
  113. I'm not the one who thinks stalking coworkers is socially acceptable behavior.
    Define stalking.

    I am so so so happy that your ass got fired over that freaky letter.
    Whatever, Drew...keep beating yourself up. No one cares about your drama.
    lol

    ReplyDelete
  114. Stalking is what you seem to enjoy doing on a daily basis.
    Look, if you don't get help for your problem your going to get worse.
    If you get worse you might wind up in jail.
    But, hey, if you wind up getting raped by your cell mate it's ok because he's just "expressing his feelings."
    Lol on that you sick son of a bitch.

    On a more serious note: there is free counceling available if you find you have Anonymous' problem with keeping your freaky ass thoughts and "feelings" to yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Stalking is what you seem to enjoy doing on a daily basis.
    I physically track and pursue prey (on a daily basis)? I think not!

    Define problem.

    Lol on that you sick son of a bitch.
    Sick? Who's apparently deriving satisfaction at ideations of rape? Fo' shame, nigga! Y'know, someone on here said there's free counseling for those dirty thoughts. (lol censorship)

    ReplyDelete
  116. I really don't get this, Drew. You are a young (25) year old man with your whole life ahead of you. You are not stupid or unattractive physically (per your videos). Is this the way you want the rest of your life to be? You apparently have alot of admiration for the lady in question, you stated she was "everything I could ever want in a girl." She was undoubtedly kind to you, so why would you wish to hurt her? These are questions you need to ask yourself. The note of apology would have been unnecessary if you truly believed you did no wrong, so we know you are aware of your mistake. Why did you do it? Only you know. Do you think you need help? You don't have to live like this.

    ReplyDelete
  117. so why would you wish to hurt her?
    Did he? Define hurt or wishing thereof.

    ReplyDelete
  118. That's kinda how I thought you would reply. Don't worry Drew, wasn't seriously looking for an answer, just playing a little Good cop, Bad cop. I know what you are, and I know where you live. Do you honestly think you are the only one who can deceive?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Do you honestly think you are the only one who can deceive?
    Whatevs, Drew. You're not fooling anyone calling me you...Psycho!

    ReplyDelete
  120. Aaaawwww, seriously Drew, Cowboy Up and identify yourself! What are you afraid of? We all can certainly pick your posts out already, that weird thing you call logic, stands out like a sore thumb. Come on, dazzle us with your intelligence, if you dare.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Oh, and by the way I lied about you not being unattractive. You are one seriously fugly MF. And that "Dawn of the Dead" affect (look this word up Drew) in your video's is just icing on the Freak cake.

    ReplyDelete
  122. We all can certainly pick your posts out already, that weird thing you call logic, stands out like a sore thumb.
    Your confidence has weak foundation. It's said when someone regards logic negatively.

    ReplyDelete
  123. The email was stunningly inappropriate. Of course he'd get fired for that.

    And please, people, can we stop responding to the /b/tards? They're tiresome and boring, and responding to them just keeps 'em coming back.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Anon 8.09
    Considering the person in question started out by saying 'DON'T READ THIS!!', there must have been some knowledge that what they were typing wasn't right. Yes it could have been that he would be embaressed if she read it, but then, why send it at all?
    Obviously there was something in the letter that seriously concerned the girl in question, otherwise she wouldn't have taken it to higher ups. It has nothing to do with being different. But, I believe, more to do with him aquiring her address with out her giving it to him. Which is concerning for anyone, especially if it's someone you've only talked to a couple of times, and don't know well. How would you know the person didn't get it by following you home? Which brings up more concerns.
    No, she didn't air those concerns to him, but then he stated in the email specifically that he didn't want to talk about it.

    ReplyDelete
  125. there must have been some knowledge that what they were typing wasn't right.
    define not right.
    he must 'know' (ie, agree)?
    your discount—could have been that he would be embaressed if she read it—only discounts your point!

    Obviously there was something in the letter that seriously concerned the girl in question, otherwise she wouldn't have taken it to higher ups.
    Obviously, Bush thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or ties to Bin Laden. Otherwise, he wouldn't have diverted resources to fight it.
    Obviously, homeopathic medicine works. Otherwise, it wouldn't be on the shelves. Obviously...

    But, I believe, more to do with him aquiring her address with out her giving it to him.
    Did he? That's not what it says. Unfounded speculation is unfounded.

    ReplyDelete
  126. I only applaud rape when it happens to schmucks like you.

    As far as why we keep responding to this douchemaster?

    I don't know.
    I think I'm bored waiting for weasel to post again and this person-who-is-starting-to-make-me-be-embarressed-to-be-a-democrat is keeping me quasi entertained with his "logic."

    The kind of logic Nietche would have wet dreams over, I'm sure.

    I had a weird thought the other day that maybe Weasel was posting as this anonymous guy just to screw with our heads.

    But probably not because his writing too good.

    You just can't fake that level of retardation.

    ReplyDelete
  127. I only applaud ... blah blah exasperation at logic and a string of genetic fallacies ...
    Using the words douche and retard, I see...
    If you were any good at logic, then you could write an incontestable argument—not this crap.
    Fail.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas, I know I did! Someone asked why do we keep feeding the trolls? Well, I can only speak for myself,but I believe that as long as the freak is busy dazzling us with his bullshit, he is hopefully leaving that poor girl alone. He craves attention of any kind, and as tedious as it is, I would email him all day, if it would buy her some peace.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Uh, excuse me?
    When did I say logic was exasperating?

    ReplyDelete
  130. Creeps don't know that they are creepy.
    No argument any of us could make would be incontestable since its impossible to argue with a wack job.

    Since your such a big fan of logic, I think there is something you should know.

    An argument is by definition, not something that can't be contested.

    Duh.

    ReplyDelete
  131. An argument is by definition, not something that can't be contested.
    I don't think you know what an argument is. Or proper logic for that matter.

    When did I say logic was exasperating?
    The logical abandonment and vitriol says it. Weak.

    he is hopefully leaving that poor girl alone.

    ReplyDelete
  132. An argument is something that can be debated.
    If something is incontestable, it can't be debated. Like a natural law for example.
    If by proper logic you mean forming half-assed paragraphs on why it's ok to stalk women, then yeah, sure, I hate logic.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Sigh. Or maybe I could compare you to hitler or something.
    That seems to be another form of powerful strong argument you seem to favor.
    You disagree with me ie you are like george bush.
    How the hell does that make sense or have any logical reasoning behind?

    ReplyDelete
  134. An argument is something that can be debated.
    No. Try again. Take basic logic.

    You disagree with me ie you are like george bush.
    How the hell does that make sense or have any logical reasoning behind?

    You fail to understand the idea of a counterexample...I guess since you argue in terms of fallacies, you think that's the only way.

    ReplyDelete
  135. What's really funny about this whole thing is I voted for Kerry, then Obama.
    Being compared with republicans by psychotic stalker/ rapists/ sociopaths/ whatever the hell you are is kinda ridiculous.
    And I do know what a counter example is.
    I also know it's not all one word.
    You weren't providing a one.
    You were comparing everyone who disagreed with you to Bush.
    Neo-McCarthyism, anyone?

    ReplyDelete
  136. Being compared with republicans
    No. Still got it wrong. Lrn2reading comprehension.

    And I do know what a counter example is.
    Apparently not.

    I also know it's not all one word.
    It is.

    ReplyDelete
  137. We'll make it an even 140 comments and then I'm done.
    I have a shotgun next to my bed because people like you exist.
    My "reading comprehension" scored higher than that of people with advanced degrees.
    When I was seven.
    I took the SATs when I was twelve.
    I really don't need any help with the English language. Thanks, anyway.
    "Obviously there was something in the letter to upset her..." (See, some of us use quotes when we are, well quoting.)
    You simply compared the statement with Bush invading Iraq for weapons of mass destruction.
    A comparison not a counter example or a counterexample.
    That doesn't "discount her point" at all.
    It just compares it to something completely unrelated.
    You retarded douche bag.

    ReplyDelete
  138. I have a shotgun next to my bed because people like you exist.
    To offer them to shoot you?

    My "reading comprehension"...
    And I command spacetime with my intellect! lol

    That doesn't "discount her point" at all.
    Lrn2read: different reference entirely.

    A comparison not a counter example or a counterexample.
    A counterexample (to a defective reasoning pattern) is a set of propositions in the same pattern that more clearly show the defect. This is the pattern: Obviously, A. Otherwise, B wouldn't.

    The comparison should upset you, because the reasoning is the same! Here's another counterexample: Obviously, people believed dedicating shrines to gods (or sacrificing humans, or observing superstitions) ensured good harvests. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it.

    In each instance, B is clearly true. However, it by no means implies A's truth is certain or the belief it describes is justified.

    You retarded douche bag.
    Ironic.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Wow, there are a lot of trolls here. One of which has an amusingly short list of tactics.

    From my (young, petite, female) point of view, there's a couple of things going on here. Guy tells a coworker he has a crush on her in an awkward manner? Yes, that's inappropriate, but I don't think it'd deserve an immediate firing or even a formal reprimand. In most cases like that, a polite 'no chance in hell, don't ever mention it again' will take care of the matter.

    David's letter goes a long ways beyond that. He openly says that he expects his letter will be disturbing to the recipient. He is upset that he's dreamed about her, and begs her to 'stay out of my dreams, you're my only hope'. He says "It's not my fault" and blames other people for rejecting him in the past. He contradicts himself multiple times. He tells her that she's very attractive, then denys that he has any interest in her. He mentions personal info that wasn't general knowledge. He gives an overall impression that he is unstable, tormented, and blaming her for it. All of this points to someone who is out of touch with reality - WAY out of touch with reality - not just someone with a misguided infatuation.

    Having delt with harassment myself, I do generally support the idea of telling the guy off first, and only going to management if problems persist. The majority of the time, it settles the issue quickly and effectively.

    This is not one of those cases. If showing his iPod to her was enough to make David 'terribly uncomfortable', there's no way he'll be able to discuss this in a calm and reasonable frame of mind. He says so himself - 'I do not wish to have a discussion about this letter'. I'm sure there are details that we aren't aware of (Either in David's favor or against him), but judging from the text of the letter she was right to go to management, and they were right to fire him. He was WAY too much of a risk to be worth keeping around.

    ~Melissa

    ReplyDelete
  140. Melissa! I know there's a lot of noise here, but I just wanted to say that at least one person read your comment and considers it to be the one that nails it. Glad to see it... well done. At the moment, yours is the last comment in the thread; it caps the whole thing off quite nicely. Yikes, I think I just wrecked that part. Ah well - I couldn't resist.

    I also cannot resist pointing out that virtually any young, petite female with casually excellent, tempered logic... is a dream girl for me. Glad to hear that you exist.

    (I am sorry)

    ReplyDelete
  141. One of which has an amusingly short list of tactics.
    Diverse tactics aren't needed to address the same, recurring issues.

    Guy tells a coworker he has a crush on her in an awkward manner? ... misguided infatuation

    He openly says that he expects his letter will be disturbing to the recipient.
    Does he? Embarrassing is not disturbing.

    He mentions personal info that wasn't general knowledge.
    It wasn't?

    He gives an overall impression that he is unstable, tormented, and blaming her for it. All of this points to someone who is out of touch with reality
    Is that impression accurate?

    only going to management if problems persist...she was right to go to management, and they were right to fire him

    I'm sure there are details that we aren't aware of

    He was WAY too much of a risk
    Or any of these: dangerous, threat, failure as a human being, problem, not right?

    Thanks for not saying what everyone before you has said or ignoring issues thereof raised.

    ReplyDelete
  142. it seems to be that this douche decided that his coworker's appearance in his dreams justified an email to her in waking life....which is rediculous to say the least.

    a while ago i had an erotic dream about my male boss (who's married) - which made me a little uncomfortable around him for the next few days. But i NEVER told him about it! And I'm sure lots of people have dreams about those they work with....in the end, their just dreams (aka, not real).

    so yeah, I'd say it's a case of harrassment.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Anon from Jan 4 - Thanks, you just made my day! I'm already taken, though.

    Yes, we exist. You might look for women working in math/science related fields. I know we can be downright nerdy in high school, but we tend to grow up in college, I promise. ;-)

    ~Melissa

    ReplyDelete
  144. with casually excellent, tempered logic
    lawl

    it seems to be that this douche decided that his coworker's appearance in his dreams justified an email to her in waking life
    Free talk needs justification?

    so yeah, I'd say it's a case of harrassment.
    Define harassment. Consider.

    ReplyDelete
  145. She was right in telling her supervisor immediately. She isn't the one who fired him, she was just documenting his creepy behavior. It is important to do. I know. I recently worked for a state university in southern Maine. I left for a few reasons, but the biggest was the fact that I was regularly harassed by a student. I spoke with my supervisor and the dean of students but nobody ever did anything to help me. I made it clear that I was afraid for my safety (I even changed my home address to my inlaws address when I found out this creep was doing work study in the library and had access to personal patron info). It was terrifying. He started out mildly creepy and then became overbearing, exhibited a lot of anger, and followed me around my workplace. I feel that had I made it clear to management FROM THE START that he was acting inappropiately then I would have gotten more support and would not have had to leave my job to get away from him.

    ReplyDelete
  146. She was right in telling her supervisor immediately.
    That's great, except everyone else already says it and runs into the same issue: did it happen at work? Does it entail the business's involvement? No? Then it's not a matter to raise to a supervisor, it's not a work policy issue, and she wasn't right to do so that way.

    ReplyDelete
  147. It was a male co-worker=it happened at work=
    she was right to tell her supervisor.
    If it was not a co-worker she should have gone to the police, not that they would have done anything as useful.

    ReplyDelete
  148. It was a male co-worker=it happened at work
    fail

    she should have gone to the police
    strange letter=criminal offense?

    ReplyDelete
  149. Seeing as this guy worked at Wal-Mart I can tell you that no Wal-Mart does not condone that type of behavior. In the first place you are scheduled to work when they want you to work. If you can't get along with a co-worker then you are out the door and no they aren't going to revamp your schedule. Hell, they don't want to work around college schedules or secondary work schedules as it is so no they aren't going reschedule this idiot. In the second place Wal-Mart stresses a safe healthy work environment. Someone sending you creeyp letters is not exactly condusive to a safe work environment. In the third place Wal-Mart is constantly being sued. If they had just slapped the man on the wrist and he went to the next level of perhaps murdering this woman, her family could sue Wal-Mart for negligence. "You knew this guy was a freak and did nothing and now she's dead." This is the way Wal-Mart operates. You either accept that or you do not work for them. Case closed.

    ReplyDelete
  150. I suspect management was looking for a reason to fire him anyway. If he had been really good at his job or a particularly valued employee, he would have gotten a warning and a note in his file.

    The immediate firing makes me suspect that there had been previous incidents or something else was going on with his work performance.

    ReplyDelete
  151. It doesn't matter that it didn't happen at work because it affected the workplace environment. Some of you need to take some harassment training.

    I think Melissa's comment perfectly described why this letter was so creepy but I have to say the two things that bothered me most were
    1) The fact that he seems to hold her responsible for the fact that he dreamed about her and 2) He mentions her route to and from work out of nowhere. Blaming someone for your dreams is not rational or sane behavior and bringing up that he knows her route in a non-sequitor like that seemed threatening.

    I was not surprised to read in the comments that he did have a previous firing but even if the slate were clean the guy was cleary eating crazy snacks 24/7.

    - RP

    ReplyDelete
  152. This guy is dangerous.
    Violence is predictable.

    Read Gavin de Becker's Gift of Fear.

    ReplyDelete
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