Wednesday, July 1, 2009

One Bad Date

Today, PLFM takes a step back and lets two fighters duke it out.

Now, PLFM didn't get much backstory on today's case, but one thing is very clear:

There's some free planters sitting out on the corner somewhere in Baltimore.

Now, let's go over what we do know:

Dan and Laura recently went out on a date.

Maybe two, we're not really sure.

Initially, it sounds like Dan and Laura felt a little spark between one another.

But somehow, somewhere, the spark suddenly exploded, and both parties got burned.

And today, my friends, we sift through the ashes.

First up, we have Dan providing a little sunshine:

Laura,

I'm really sorry if I did anything to upset you. I was really happy to have met someone with a very silly sense of humor, open minded, attractive and jewish. I was excited that you are going to journey out to XXXX and just (and still) wanted to be helpful.

I'm home from work and running errands in the area. If you are around I will quickly pick the planters up and be on my way.

Cheers,


Dan


Hmmmm, Dan's email seems a little cloudy.

Perhaps Laura can provide some cleansing rain?

Dan,

You are a cool guy, but it boggles my mind that you walked up to the ticket booth and said, "1 for star trek" and then stepped aside so I could get my own ticket. Where I come from a guy pays for a woman in the beginning.

While I was shocked when you took the $ at the bar on Saturday, I recognized that I did offer.

You made me laugh so hard and I had a good time that I chose not to dwell on a petty $ issue, but then you did it again.

It's just not classy, especially when followed by a comment along the lines that you thought you'd get more, like a kiss or something when I went to say goodbye outside the theater.

Really?

I'm actually in and out all day. I can leave the boxes outside, like I mentioned, so you can pick them up. Does that work?


Laura

And now take cover my friends, because here comes Dan's big thunder!

Laura,

Thank you for writing back and being honest.

Allowing you to pay for your own ticket "boggles your mind", huh?


Well, I'll tell you what boggles MY mind. For some reason you have these outrageous expectations that a man can only be classy if he gives the woman he's interested in a total free ride.

You claim to choose to not dwell on a petty money issue, but that's exactly what you are doing. You actually chose to focus your emotions on whether I was picking up your bar tab instead of allowing you to possess a modicum of self reliance.

Where *I* come from, it is 2009 and its a great place to live. This is where women aren't looked at as 'the fairer (read "weaker") sex, but seen as equals to men. Its not the 1950's which was a time of one-income households, but a time of shared burdens.

Oh sure there are plenty of sugar daddies to be found out there, but how many of them will give you the same deep belly laughs where your cheeks hurt from smiling so hard? If you hold on to those outdated beliefs of yours, then you should also be eagar to service the man that is bankrolling you too, b/c that's what is expected from that type of exchange.

When I tried kissing you in the vestibule before the movie, you muttered a remark which you did not want to repeat, but now I understand it was likely about accepting your previous offer of buying your own drink. I'd say that's painfully shallow, forgetful, and hurtful that you so easily overlooked my previous generosity.


I feel obligated to recap the charges I DID pay for since you are clearly caught up on the two that I didn't.

Starting with paying for that second slice of pizza you split with Bob the first night meeting you, there was your lunch after the park, 70% of that burger meal, buying our breakfast the morning of Lowes, getting a six pack for you & Christy, graciously supplying greeeens the whole time I was with you, and even after you went ice cold b/c I didn't pony up your movie ticket, i STILL covered the popcorn and soda even though you asked me so sourly.

Now lets talk about class and "classy". One of the reasons why I didn't pay for your movie ticket was b/c I wasn't sure what was going on in your head up to that point in the day. You had stopped being flirtatious. The whole walk to the theater you were cold to me. I was feeling rather unappreciated and also somewhat confused by how you were behaving.


I showed the quality of my character and had been a complete gentleman throughout by running out specially for drinks, running up and down the stairs for water, being genuinely concerned for your friend's well being, making your neighbor's children laugh, entertaining your friends and even helping you paint!

I'd say that's pretty high class, and had you shown me some interest and not gotten caught up in that small minded thinking I most certainly would have bought the movie ticket too. THAT is just the kind of guy that I am.

Amongst my friends and family, I'm well known as being very generous with my money and most especially generous with my time. So after the movie when I said that I thought I'd get more of a response from you, or at the very least a goodbye kiss, yeah, REALLY.

Overall, you need to re-examine the values you look for in a man. It boggles my mind that you squashed something that I thought could have been really great between us b/c your movie wasn't on my dime.


I work really hard and long hours and put up with a ton of crap for my dollars. I don't think you can say the same, yet you have an outrageous sense of self-entitlement that is pretty undeserved.

I'm bummed it didn't work out between us, but not too bad since I see you are quite superficial and not worth a quality guy like myself.

One last thing, you can keep those planters. It will almost cover the cost of the burger and movie ticket while saving me travel time and keeping my dignity.

Best,

Dan

Hmmmm.

Pretty harsh email there, Dan.

I don't know though folks, this could be a tough one.

Was Laura wrong for sparking the money issue?

Was Dan a cheap asshole? Or was he an asshole for the reason he was being cheap?

Or both? Or neither?

Either way, from now on I'm pretty sure vaginas will slam shut around Dan like his penis was selling vacuum cleaners.

Discuss.

249 comments:

  1. From the available information, if she offered to pay for her own drinks, she can't turn around and get pissed that he accepted her offer. That's just passive aggressive bullshit right there.

    As to the ticket issue, if it was a first date, I would expect the person who did the inviting to pay for the ticket. That's good manners. So, if he invited her, he should pay for her ticket, whether or not she was being friendly.

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  2. Yeah, she was a bit off. It's usually expected that the woman will offer to pay her part, but the guy will refuse. But, it doesn't always work that way. And if you offer, you've got no right to expect him to pay for you. It comes with being an equal. And if what he said about the things he DID pay for is true, it does kinda sound like he was being fair. He went way overboard in his email, but it doesn't sound like he was totes over the line for being pissed off at this girl.

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  3. Whoever does the inviting pays for the date. But there's not a lot of info here, so it kinda sounds like they deserve each other.

    I do like how Dan says it's 2009 and how he doesn't expect anything after paying for a date and then a few paragraphs later, expects something after paying. Lovely.

    But seriously, my vote is they're both twats.

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  4. I have to say...she was silly to spark the money issue there was obvisouly an underlying cause for her to bring up such a small thing. The guy I am seeing now, we would split who would pay i would pay one time he would pay the next and I liked it that way because I am a very independent woman (not say she isnt) but I dont want a guy thinking he needs to pay for things and in return I "owe" him. Such as this he thought because he paid she "owed" him a kiss or some type of affection. Now in my relationship, we do still split things and we never "owe" each other. I feel he was wrong also for thinking he should be "owed" a kiss as that is how it sounded...look forward to hearing more...and maybe ill let you on a story about my ex and I. ;p

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  5. I don't know, I think I have to side with Dan on this one.
    It's a goddamn movie ticket.
    While it might be the norm for guys (or the person who asks the other out) to pay, I don't think it should be EXPECTED.
    I think they are both a little bit self-absorbed and judge-y.
    Also, Laura, while it might not be the BEST thing, you could at the very least not write him off right away.
    I might be surprised if the guy who asked me out didn't pay the first time, but I certainly wouldn't make a thing of it so quickly.

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  6. I'm quite confused about the whole thing. So Dan makes a nice seeming email about being sorry if he caused any pain, and trying to work something out about planters. So far so good.

    Then Laura takes that as an invitation to criticise the crap out of Dan for what seems like some highly subjective views of his his ettiquette, and what seems like, even to her, a pretty minor infraction even if he did do anything wrong.

    And now Dan's rightfully upset, at which point, I most likely would emailed "the hell with you, I just wanted to say something nice and organise about the planters, and you take the chance for cheap shots? Don't call me again".

    But Dan decides to take the uber-classy route and emails a crazy rant.

    So I'm gonna guess one of two things:

    1) Laura is a bit of a bitch, but Dan frankly needs to see someone, he has anger issues or something, who KNOWS what!

    or

    2) Dan was, as he said, a complete gentleman, probably even beyond what he mentioned, and Laura is even more of a snide bitch that portrayed, and Dan was fuming and steaming, and rather than explode and kill the entire country with his shrapnel, he vented a little of his well-earned frustrations.

    But I'm guessing option 1.

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  7. schubomb, it sounds a whole lot more like #2. Dan's email suggests that maybe Laura was moving into a new place, he helped her with her decorating, was nice to her friends, was nice to her, and then when she gives him the cold shoulder he's not even sure they ARE on a date and plays the safe route and doesn't try to pay for her ticket, which I'm sure oh-so-classy Laura would have taken as "pushy" if he had done it.

    Sounds like he's best off away from someone so passive aggressive and resentful...

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  8. I have to side with Dan on this one. I agree that he probably took his response a bit too far with that final email, but I can see why he would be upset. He was trying to be friendly and part amicably in his first email, and instead of doing the classy thing and responding in kind, Laura took the opportunity to nit-pick. I'm surprised she did, becasue she says herself that she laughed a lot and had a good time, so it seems like she is giving the money issue way too much importance. I would much rather have a man who makes me laugh and occasionally expects me to pay than one who pays for everything but it dull as dishwater.

    Dan's last email is a bit over-the-top, but I can see why he would be frustrated. If Laura had taken the high road in her email, then Dan wouldln't have felt the need to respond this way, but he could have taken the high road as well and just ignored her snippy comments.

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  9. Spoiled brat mets another spoiled brat?

    Both seems to have some entitlement issues, but I'd still give the asshat award to Dan due to his whole "I acted like a nice guy so now you owe me somthing" rant.

    A truely nice guy acts like a nice guy because he is a nice guy!

    Also his "allowing you to possess a modicum of self-reliance" shows that he really doesn't get that whole equality thing.

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  10. It doesn't "sound" like a first date... but I don't know. After the first couple of dates, I know I expect to go dutch, unless otherwise specified.

    I think she was a twat for bringing up the money issue, and I don't agree that the guy pays for everything "in the beginning", that's antiquated and unfair.

    However, I think it is truly gross to expect some kind of physical "reward" for paying for anything... that's the makings of a date rape.

    They're both twats.

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  11. I gotta go with being sad they didn't end up together because now they're in the dating pool for other people to experience. Both sound like selfish, angry people with entitlement issues. Had Dan only managed to write a second email with the same charm he did the first, he would have been the winner hands down. As it is, they tied in the Cockbib Olympics.

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  12. Just want to add:

    Laura do seems to be somewhat passive agressive, which got me thinking: Was the whole blaiming money thing just a lame excuse for breaking it off due to fizzled chemistry?

    I mean, either she's incredibly materalistic or things weren't really that great. Or both.

    I smell a bad second date.

    In that case, why didn't she just say thanks, but no thanks?

    Well, that angry rant of his might serve as a clue to why...

    This is a tricky one.

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  13. I think that they are probably the two most high-maintenance people in town.

    Hey Laura, it's a fucking movie ticket. Calm down.

    Hey Dan, it's a fucking movie ticket. Lighten up.

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  14. The one who asks, pays. But in the beginning, even if the woman asks, the man should still offer to pay. (Sorry.) Once in a while, the woman should offer to pay, and the man should refuse, but then if the woman says, "No really, I've got this," then he should let the woman pay without making a federal case out of it. Having said all of that, I think a guy should dump any woman who never offers to pay.

    Dan had more of my sympathy until this comment: "I work really hard and long hours and put up with a lot of crap for my dollars. I don't think you can say the same..." Whoa. Dick move, Dan.

    And the expectation of physical affection? Not cool, dude. Regardless of who pays. Although Laura does sound like a bit of a cold fish bitch.

    I also didn't like Dan's whole self-serving tone, what with all of the running up and down stairs for water (really? you ran?), "entertaining" her friends, all his friends thinking he's so damn generous with his time and money, etc. And his comment that he would have paid for the movie ticket, but he decided not to in order to punish her since she had stopped being flirtatious. Sounds like a jerk.

    And Laura sounds like a total jerk for rejecting a guy solely on the basis of his refusal to pay for a frigging movie ticket, and him taking her up on her offer to pay for drinks. I think he's definitely on to something when he calls her superficial.

    In sum, they're both idiots.

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  15. If you have to tell people how kind and generous you are, you really aren't.

    I think Laura's a high-maintenance entitlement addicted bitch, but I also think Dan's rather more fond of himself than is necessary.

    Both of them come across as douches. Dan a little less so than Laura.

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  16. He helped her paint! She should be taking him to the movies.

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  17. Sub-par post weasel. Nothing really psychotic about this one. Dan's email was long and ranty, but not really deserving of our scorn.

    Laura: High maintenance, needs to grow up a bit. Probably using the money thing as an excuse because she didn't really like Dan.
    Dan: Needs to stop reacting like an overemotional girl.

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  18. 2CatMom

    This one's a tough call. I think Laura fell out of like with him somewhere between the first and second date and used the ticket as an excuse. She handled it in a childish way.

    Unfortunately, Dan's second response is really immature and does him no credit. He handled it in a childish way.

    Whether the two are related is anyone's guess.

    And to Dan & Laura: you can't control anyone else's behavior. but you can control your response to it.

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  19. They both come across badly in this post. If he helped her move/paint, then she should offer to take HIM out. She also shouldn't get hung up on the cost of a freaking movie ticket, even if she did expect him to pay. It's like what, $10-$15? Get over it.

    On the other hand, his last email takes away his high ground. He puts on the pose of being so self-sacrificing and noble, but he did expect a kiss and he clearly was keeping a running tab of everything HE had paid for. They deserve each other, imho. Unless there's more to the story than we can see.

    The person who asks for the date pays. The person who is asked offers (sincerely) to pay for his/her part. Then it's up to the asker whether or not to split the cost of the date.

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  20. I agree - the asker pays on the first few dates, but the balance evens out soonish if a relationship is to happen.

    I like to pay for meals ang buy rounds, and I appreciate reciprocation. But if a man wants to spark up an exclusive, affectionate relationship, then I expect to be treated with more chivalry.

    Also, if one lists the percentages of what one spends monetarily socially, then one is a stinking uptight arse.

    Wes, this isn't the most psychotic or entertaining post, but it's a reasonable topic for discussion. Lazy bastard. Give me those 20 hours of computer monkey slave work for my entertainment.

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  21. I think both are at fault - and aren't sure how you came tog et the exchange - but clearly, it reeks of "look at how he treated me". That's just the impression i get from it; my husband and I have things where he pays, or I pay, or we SPLIT it. That's just the way it has always been with us.

    Whatever asshatery Dan displayed, I think eh got caught up in the moment of reacting to Laura's e-mail. But I want to believe the best in him based on the first e-mail.

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  22. I was with Dan until he started giving an inventory of all the shit he paid for. That's classic douchebag behaviour, right there.

    So, yeah, they're both jackasses. They should get married and have a million jackass babies.

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  23. Now, I'll admit, it's been almost 8 years since I was last single, however, I have to say I have NEVER expected the guy to pay on any of our dates, much less the FIRST. I have always held a firm belief that if you can't afford to go dutch, and pay your own way, then you shouldn't go. Now, if he offers to pay, great, but don't count on it. Of course I've always been the type to make up for him paying for, say, the movie, by paying for the drinks afterwards or something. I have to say I'm on Dan's side here, but I will say he seems to have been a bit of a douche about it.

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  24. As far as the ticket goes, it's at least nice to offer to pay, but personally I'd prefer to go dutch. If my date offers, and genuinely doesn't mind, I'd be okay with the movie ticket. I feel uncomfortable when someone spends too much on me, so if he paid for the ticket, I'd buy my own soda and popcorn.
    I have to say, even though he wasn't being the most polite guy, I'm on Dan's side. Laura seems to be overreacting to something Dan didn't really do (be "cheap"), and Dan is just upset at her reasons. She was being rude to him, so he didn't offer to pay. And, it sounds like they had a really weird first date, complete with painting and nursing a friend to health...

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  25. Who pays isn't that big a deal, and I think it's ridiculous that so many women are up in arms about our 'equality' but want to take advantage of 'chivalry' so we don't have to open our own doors or pay for our own dinners. If her main complaint with him is really that he didn't pay, then she's a shallow bitch (or has been dreaming up too many cinderella fantasies). And his response indicates he's not the most stable guy ever.

    On paying... generally if I want to go out and my boyfriend is feeling broke I pay, and vice versa. But more often we split it, like I buy movie tickets and he buys popcorn & soda. And when we go out to dinner he usually has to pay for his own beer (hey, beer is expensive! Why should I pay for his 5 dollar beer when I had just a 1.50 soda?)

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  26. Personally I'm with Dan, although he went into WAY TOO MUCH detail in his letter. I think the exchange about what a guy should get in exchange for paying for a date was pretty funny and ridiculous. Give me a break. If I'm gonna put out for money it will cost a hell of a lot more than a damn movie ticket. Yeah, so I agree with hellkell - they're both twats.

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  27. I think they're both wankers, but I'd side with Dan based on the information given. Sure, his breakdown of just how much he paid/did while on a date with her is really lame, but her being bent out of shape for the whole evening because they went Dutch on movie tickets (when he did end up buying at the concession stand) is equally as lame. My fiancee pays for most of our outings; he has the bigger income and less bills than I do, but if he's feeling particularly broke or it's something small- like movie tickets!- I'll pay my share.

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  28. I'm with Dan. Sure the last e-mail is getting nitpicky and snarky, but it IS 2009. A woman should not *expect* a guy to pay for the whole date. These days Men work, women work, we all have our own money. The strongest relationships are those built as a partnership of equals

    And Laura, if you offer something then get annoyed when someone accepts, you are a passive agfressive bitch. Why offer if you don't want to do it? Ah, because then you get to feel rigteous indignation that anyone would have the temerity to trust you to make your own decisions.

    Hell, if you're feeling espeically mean, you can come up with an excuse to be annoyed whatever he does! accepts $ = no chivalry. refuses $ = chauvinist who doesn't treat you as an equal. It's win-win!

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  29. I'm on team nobody (or if I had to choose, Team Planters). They both come off as cheap, moody and annoying. Boo. They both lose.

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  30. Well, I'm an old fashioned kind of guy (thanks dad!).

    However, I do believe in sex equality, but thats never the issue. I always pay for my girlfriend's way (unless I'm really low on cash; I'll tell her before we go out, so she knows what to expect), carry as many bags as I can before she has to carry one, and all this old fashion stuff (I'll even wait patiently for the hours it takes her to get ready).

    I think he's a prick for not paying her way (just because its 2009), but she also took it too far because he didn't. This whole money crap just throws bricks in a (from what I get) possibly enjoyable relationship.

    I can't stand guys that whine about money; fuck dudes, man up and pay up. Money is for using, and who's better to use it on then the potential girlfriend? Yourself? Then you're just a selfish asshat that should live alone with his four cats and his collection of 2D women. Is 15$ worth throwing away a good relationship? I'll spend what ever I have to (within what I can afford, I'm no millionaire), to make sure that shes happy.

    Oops... Sorry, I have no tolerance for cheap men.

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  31. When I was still on the dating "scene" I always offered to go dutch, especially on the first couple of dates, it was rare that I was taken up on it though. I am leaning towards Dan on this one, even though he felt he had to brag about how "generous and nice he was" that was a bit over the top.

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  32. I never thought that I would say this, but I'm siding with the guy on this one. Yeah, accounting for every penny he spent on the woman is a bit much, but if a she offered to pay for something and grew pissy when he allowed her to, well I can understand a bit of pettiness on his fault.

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  33. Now, I have to say this about the "70%" comment: I regularly make pretend estimates on things. Such as "I'm 10% sure" or "I did like 95% of the work" I think its a geek thing and not necessarily a douchebag fact.

    He took her to Lowe's (hardware store) AND helped her paint. That's pretty nice from a guy in "the beginning" of a relationship. It sounds like the money thing happened on a single date after spending a couple of weekends together.

    It sounds to me like they were both being passive-aggressive that night. She was testing him by offering to pay for the drinks and he "punished" her for being distant by not paying for her ticket.

    The only red flag for me in Dan's email is calling himself a "quality guy". Everything else reads as heat-of-the-moment "F you" to me.

    Laura's email? Wowzers. Immediately pitches a fit about buying her own ticket and own drinks. Then takes offense at him saying he was hoping for a kiss after a 2nd/3rd date from someone with whom he had just spent a fair amount of time helping around the house.

    Dan's probably not as awesome as he thinks he is and is probably a lot more time-generous than money-generous. But I agree with everyone else: Laura's no peach herself.

    Dude helped you paint and schleped you to the hardware store at breakfast time. And you're pitching a fit because he made you spend $20?

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  34. God I'm glad I don't have to date anymore!

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  35. This reminds me of the only time I was slightly miffed that a date didn't buy me a movie ticket. It was our first date, but I knew him very well from college. He told me we HAD to go to an AMC theater because that is where he had a gift card for and he'd like to use it. Cool. We get there and he orders one ticket for himself (student rate too since we still had our college ids!).

    I have no problem buying my own stuff or paying for dates. My boyfriend and I battle each other to pay for things sometimes, but there was something about the set up of the situation that made me not feel super happy. He made me feel like he was eager to pay for my ticket since he got this graduation present of a gift card and told me all about it. I was a little stunned when I was left to pay my own way. It was more about being misled than having to pay for my own ticket that I was upset about. I did brush it off and didn't let it affect the date, though.

    In this case, she seems more in the wrong... but then he goes off the deep end in his argument. The whole percentages thing makes him seem as petty as she because he has been keeping a running tally.

    No one ever sounds good talking about how classy they are, even if what they did is classy! It just ruins it.

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  36. First date, guy pays. I'm a feminist and blah blah blah, but it's just a rule. It's an offering. And a guy who makes a deal of paying for only his own shit on a first date is giving out bad vibes, the same way a girl would if she insisted she paid for herself on the first date.

    That said, they're both assholes.

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  37. See.. this is why I pay for my own drinks on a first date. (I'm a chick.) If I don't like the guy, I don't have to kiss him and I don't have to feel guilty about asking a probably very nice, but not my type guy to buy me premium vodka. (Cheap stuff gives me terrible hang overs.) It's nice when a guy offers, but this IS 2009 and first dates aren't free rides for us women anymore. If the date is going good, I usually relent to the "you buy a round, I buy a round" arrangement and will allow the guy to buy me drinks if he offers.

    What pisses me off, though, is those few guys that bring $20 to a bar and expect me to either buy their drinks or go back to their place when the $20 has been spent. No way, Charlie.

    In my opinion, first dates should be handled financially like you're going out with a friend - everything split down the middle. That way, emails like this don't happen.

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  38. She's sparks the twattery. He wades in it.

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  39. Personally, I am uncomfortable when someone pays for my movie ticket on a date. Not because I think they are expecting something in return but because I look like an idiot when I'm reaching into my pocket for money when he's already paid. I actually got called out and asked if I "didn't think he was classy enought to buy a lady a movie ticket."

    While it's NOT the 50's as he states, if you are *taking* someone out on a date, it's usually polite to pay for something. Not required but it shows that you give a shit in some fashion. (Or that you are trying to get into our pants...whatever).

    But really, to me, she sounds like the bitch in this story. Letting a whole date go to waste because he didn't pay for a ticket? Someday when she's dried up and old she'll look back on that day and think "jesus fucking christ, I was an idiot".

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  40. "I would expect the person who did the inviting to pay for the ticket."
    "Whoever does the inviting pays for the date."
    "The one who asks, pays. But in the beginning, even if the woman asks, the man should still offer to pay."
    "The person who asks for the date pays."
    "the asker pays on the first few dates"

    lol feminism

    Friends pay for their own things even when they invite each other. Friends are equal.

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  41. I personally side with Dan on this dispute. He wasn't immature or insecure about it all. He was dignified and made sure he addressed her concerns that were purely financial. Sure, movies cost an arm and a leg these days, but to be aghast when your 'not presumably' date doesn't buy the ticket. However, there hasn't been a time that I've gone to a movie with a male friend where they haven't bought it. Even if I'm not dating them, same applies for dinner.

    I think she made the money a little blatantly obvious, she should have let it go. Clearly Dan had a decent head on his shoulders and was only responding in the way she was treating him. Platonic.

    I will agree that she sounds like the bitch in this situation and while it would have been proper to buy her ticket... again, the way she was treating him only stood to reason why he let her foot her own bill for the movie ticket.

    Kudos for Dan and his maturity.

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  42. That girl is an awful, selfish, immature cavewoman who makes the rest of us look bad. That said, I am sure she will have no trouble finding a nice caveman who will cover her movie ticket and then beat her over the head with a club. Best of luck, Laura.

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  43. Dan's second email was a little bit over the top, but Laura was a much bigger asshole in the whole thing. Seriously, if you don't want somebody to accept an offer, you don't make it. That's just passive-aggressive stupidity.

    As the amazing Cynthia Heimel once said (and anybody who doesn't recognize that name should rush out and read at least two of her books), if women don't want to be seen as sex objects, we have to stop treating men like success objects. (In other words, a woman who doesn't want to be treated like a walking pussy shouldn't treat men like a walking wallet.)

    And yes, I'm a woman.

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  44. @ Anon 9:49, I'm curious about your "lol feminism" comment. Most of the lines you quoted there don't specify it's the guy who has to ask for the date/outing.

    Personally, I think it's only polite to offer to pay for something if you've invited someone out, no matter if you're a girl or a guy. It's also polite to decline and pay for yourself but sometimes friends like to treat each other. It's not a question of equality, it's a question of doing something nice.

    That's not to say that Dan HAD to pay for her ticket. And she certainly shouldn't have made it the reason she was cold to him -- if you tell a guy you can pay for yourself, then don't be pissed if he takes you at your word.

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  45. I'm with Dan on this one. However, when someone goes off on a rant about what nice a guy he is and a running tally, that's a sign. A bad sign.

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  46. Weas, what are you doing to us? We don't want to side with the GUY. Bring on the psychotic ranting goodness! =P
    Good discussion guys.

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  47. @Anon 9:49: You fail at comprehension, most of us were saying that the inviter pays, regardless of gender.

    @rec: Right on with reading recommendations. "Get Your Tongue Out of My Mouth, I'm Kissing You Goodbye," and "If You Can't Live Without Me, Why Aren't You Dead Yet?" are classics.

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  48. A guy who has an itemized list in his head of everything he has spent is not a generous guy. He's a cheap petty bitch using his so-called generosity as a means toward obligation.

    As for the "I allowed you a modicum of self reliance" comment - wow. I mean, wow. Now he's in charge of dishing out self reliance? Gee, in that case, he's not a cheap petty bitch. He's awesome.

    Dan, listen up, you cunt. Self reliance is something she has or doesn't have. You are not the author of someone else's virtues. You sound like a cheap petty bitch with some entitlement issues of your own, and a very slanted view of what constitutes generosity.

    I rarely allow a man to buy me anything. But if I did, I certainly wouldn't expect to have that gift thrown back in my face when he doesn't get his expected return. A gift is something you give without expectation.

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  49. Going with Dan here. He's a whole person who seems to have offered himself up as such: helpful, attentive and trying to walk the fine line of knowing what he can and can't expect/presume. He didn't get it all right, but he seemed to be trying.

    Laura has hard and fast rules and values one rule (he pays) above all else.

    I'm not surprised Dan got so angry in the end--to be told nothing you do makes you desirable UNLESS you pay for everything. He may not be able to always do so; does that mean he's not deserving of a woman? Any woman?

    ON THE WHO PAYS RULE: C'mon people there's so much gray here, it's really hard to navigate. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" is very different than "Are you hungry?" but both could be construed as an invitation.

    I've been on 45 first dates in the last two years (don't discount my comments on that fact, puleeze!) and while there are trends in terms of who pays, two things are consistent: 1) I offer and am prepared to pay without predudice; and 2) it has no bearing on whether I want to see the guy again.

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  50. When I first start going out with someone, I generally pay for myself or pay for half of our dates. I work and make decent money so there is no reason not to.
    Also I feel that if you are only willing to kiss or be affectionate with someone after they have bought something for you, like drinks or movie tickets, it's not that far off from prostitution.
    I think she was being something of a gold digger and if I were the guy in this situation, I would be really offended that she brought up the money issue. A few of my guy friends have dumped women for sponging off of them in ways similar to this, where they have to pay for everything even though their dates have jobs.
    He may be wrong for sending such a harshly worded letter, but she was more wrong for promoting sexism, or she should go back to the 50's.

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  51. Dan is the victim in this case. This chick is/was looking for any excuse not to see him again (it sounds like a jdate gone bad). They may have seen one another before this "incident at the movies", but it sounds like she was not into him (physically or otherwise) and didn't have the balls to tell him the truth.

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  52. Too bad it didn't work between them - they deserve each other. I was close to siding with Dan until he got all high and mighty and "here are the reasons I'm such a nice guy" (thus proving himself to be quite the opposite). What a pompous, immature boy. Laura sounds like a spoiled brat. They're both self-entitled, therefore they both fail.

    Money is always a sticky issue with me - I hate discussing it, and I don't like when people make such a big deal about small purchases. Right now, I make more than double what my boyfriend does (we both don't make a lot in any case), so I feel bad when he pays for things. Everything tends to even out though - I'll pay for one meal, he'll pay for another. If I let him, he'd pay for everything (without complaint because he's truly a nice guy), but as I don't have a sense of entitlement, I don't let him.

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  53. Haven't posted before on either site, but this sort of relates to one date I went on once.

    A while back I was using OKCupid, and frankly the problems I had were basically the inability to find women who seemed interesting, and on the rare occasion I sent a message, silence.

    But this girl messaged me. She was intrigued, though upfront that she was, in her (paraphrased, of course, it's been a while) words, "bisexual and more interested in girls than guys". After chatting for a few days to a week, she suggested we get dinner. I took her up on the offer.

    It didn't go especially well, neutral more than anything. We ate, we went to a bar and had a drink afterwards, I gave her a brief hug before departing.

    The next morning she informs me that she's not interested and, since she thinks many of the reasons were my being inexperienced (which I definitely was, and still am) with dating, provides a good-natured critique of what I did wrong.

    The two main things I did wrong were talking too much and not paying for her. Talking too much I accept, but the payment hit a bit of a sore note with me. Now to explain why.

    When I ask a girl out, I do expect to pay. But I'm expecting to pay because I asked her out, not because I am the guy and therefore responsible for doing so. This girl asked me out, then expected me to pay on gender lines. I don't think, in these supposedly equal, liberated, etc. times, that who pays for a date should go on gender lines. And I never expect the woman to pay for me, if she asks me out I do expect her to pay for herself, but not for me.

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  54. They sound about as bad as each other, communication skills wise.

    Laura needs to get over this idea that The Man Pays - there's no way in this day and age that you can just expect that and upbringing or not, she can't pretend she doesn't know that. Dan, who was (rightly I think) pissed that he had been called unclassy for taking the safe, 'not getting hit with a handbag' route of not being the Big Breadwinner Bullshit Brigade on the first date - I mean, it's one of those risky areas for men, that who pays thing, and he called it the way most women would want it, and got slapped for it. She got ANGRY with him for it, without ever saying anything. His email is badly executed, but I don't blame him for feeling pissed at her over her getting angry with him for not meeting her (uncommunicated) expectations.

    Also, she smoked his pot.

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  55. I'm on dan's side

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  56. While I don't agree with the way Dan said it, I'm a bit on his side. The social expectation has shifted in recent years from 'the man pays because the woman doesn't work and can't pay for herself/ the man must be the provider' to 'going dutch is somewhat expected because then no one 'owes' the other and we (hopefully) wind up with fewer pressures on either side to do something stupid too early'.

    I have no proof, but I do have a strong suspicion that Laura wanted to break it off with Dan, and this was a perfect out (at least in her eyes). Either that or she has a sense of entitlement to rival those with the last name 'Bush'.

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  57. I think Dan was in the right. Generally speaking, the guy pays on the first date. But he's right--nowadays, men and women both work, sometimes she makes more than he does. I think she made a much bigger deal out of it than she should have, and his reply was quite fair and not at all out of line.

    If I were her, I'd apologize for getting bent out of shape for something so trivial. I think he deserves an apology. There's chivalry, and there's basic respectful behavior that each of us *owes* each other.

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  58. Sorry girlie. I'm always there to stand for for the woman ... but I honestly think Dan was so offended that she was such a cheap, rude girl with a sense of entitlement, that she deserved that last letter. He didn't pay for her movie? My God, pay your own way. He obviously paid/offered to pay for a lot of other things. This guy isn't psycho.

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  59. @Anonymous 10:09 AM: Friends don't expect someone else to pay. Friends pay for you only on exception--you don't expect it.

    "Most of the lines you quoted there don't specify it's the guy who has to ask for the date/outing."

    A guy expect a girl to pay for him? You're joking. Girls invite guys out? Funnier. The sex neutral language conveniently glosses over what happens in practice. Hint: it's not equal.

    @hellkell: No. You fail. This is like referring to brassiere wearers regardless of gender.

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  60. Both seem to have issues here. Dan over reacts and demands the last word while Laura is quite the bratty princess. Definitely not a good combo. I agree with Dan though, it should be pretty even. Throughout my 2+ yr relationship with my bf, we'll spot eachother equally without even thinking about it. He buys dinner, I buy the movie tickets and snacks. I buy drinks, he buys the hangover cure at the drive through mexican restaurant. If it really bothers you that a guy didn't pay for you, just keep quiet, buy your ticket, enjoy the movie, and don't call him back! Prob solved!

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  61. @ Anon 12:28: I'm thinking you're a troll, but whatever, I'll give replying to you one more shot.

    "Friends don't expect someone else to pay."

    And...where in my comment did I say that they do? While you indicated in your original comment that friends HAVE to each pay their own way to be equal ("friends pay for their own things even when they invite each other. Friends are equal"), I pointed out that they can also treat each other. I've taken friends out to movies before, and vice versa. As I said, it's NOT a question of equality (or gender, for that matter). It's just doing something nice, unasked for and without expecting recompense, for and with a friend.

    Also, you think it's funny that girls can ask guys out? Then I don't want to know what era you're coming from. I've done so, and paid for the movie or whatever. Not all guys think they have to pay for EVERYTHING lest it be a slight against their masculinity. Both guys and girls can offer to pay for themselves, but accept graciuously when their date says it's covered for them. Wow, equality is funny, eh?

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  62. I think Dan had a great point. Though he did come across rather cold, and mean. Based on the info available, I think Laura overreacted, it sounds like he had been taking pretty good care of her up until then. I agree with the others, if she offered to pay for the bar drinks, she has no right to be upset.

    http://confessions-of-a-waitress.blogspot.com/

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  63. Typo: graciously.

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  64. I'm a female, but I cheered through Dan's e-mail the whole way through. While I'm used to men offering to pay during the first few dates, I don't think it should ever be expected. I think it's a nice gesture for the person who asked the other out on the date (whether male or female) to pay, but it's also the responsibility of the askee to offer to pay their own way as well . . . and not have their minds blown when the offer is accepted. I consider myself a feminist, and I get more than a little annoyed with women who want equal rights and respect EXCEPT when going back to antiquated notions of chivalry suits them.

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  65. To the anonymous "lol feminism" dude:

    Societal conventions regarding who pays for dates are different than those for two friends getting together and hanging out. (At least, in my experience.) Not sure your argument about who pays for platonic get-togethers even applies.

    Most guys I know wouldn't be caught dead letting a woman pay for the first several dates, regardless of who does the inviting. That said, it's completely obnoxious for either party to "expect" the other to pay. And to have that as a make-or-break qualification is even more horrendous! Vile.

    Not sure why you seem so flabbergasted that women do ask men out. It happens a lot, actually. The fact that this doesn't seem to be your experience probably says more about you than you intend.

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  66. @ Anon 12:28

    A guy expect a girl to pay for him? You're joking. Girls invite guys out? Funnier

    Um, there was just a comment from a guy who expected the girl to pay for their date because she asked him out. So I guess the jokes on you?

    And as for friends paying for friends: when I was an intern (female), I asked all of my co-interns (male) out to try a steak place on our last Saturday night. Since I did the asking and it was a fairly nice place, I surprised them by picking up the check. Afterwards, one guy bid me a particularly touched fairwell because as he put it "I've never had a girl pay for my dinner before". He fully expected to pay for my food even though it was a 100% platonic group outing.

    In any case, comparing two friends getting dinner to a courting relationship is fallacious. A courtship is to demonstrate a special romantic interest in a person, thus it is much more reasonable to expect that the asker pays.

    If you're so caught up in the fact that men do the asking the vast majority of the time, then you should start being frustrated with how our patriarchal culture enforces norms against women expressing overt romantic interest in a man. (virin/whore dichotomy; woo feminism!)

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  67. I dunno, it makes me uncomfortable if a guy insists on paying for everything. If he wants to pay for the first movie, ok, but then I want to get dinner or the next movie or something. I think it is pretty shallow of her to bring up the money thing. She sounds like a bitch.

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  68. In many ways, this email exchange underscores the confusion our generation faces in the dating world. I've always believed that with dating (much like business retreats or client dinners) the person who seeks the other's company should generally be the one that pays.

    As a guy, I've always paid for the majority of dates (and particularly the first several) simply because it makes me happy to do so. It's not that I believe my dates couldn't pay for their own dinner (some have made considerably more money than I do) or that I suffer from some outmoded sense of gender subjugation--it's simply a polite courtesy to a fellow human being which I have no problem extending.

    Regardless of whether Laura might have been in the wrong, Dan's response was hardly the portrait of classy behavior.

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  69. i was glad to have read the others' comments. and i agree with both of them. these two sound like they deserve each other. though honestly, i kinda side with Dan a bit (though it's true there seem to be a lot of details left out), even though his going on and on was a bit annoying. it's definitely a tough call out there right now as to how manners and tradition play out in the dating pool. we, as women, want to be treated as equals, but yeah, we still like the door held open for us. speaking from experience. my partner and i go every other date, though it is mathematically the same as dutch it feels nice to treat each other/take each other out to dinner!

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  70. I am 100% on Dans side. Even if it was a misunderstanding, or he had ridiculous reasons for NOT paying the ticket- in my life i do not rely on (expect) ANYONE to do anything for me. Especially someone i barely know. She shouldnt have either. she sounds like a money grubber that is quite self entitled.
    Yea, it would have been nice and good for him to pay.. but to expect it? fuck that! Dan did write a letter that made him sound like a complete tool, but i think it was deserving. When i get burned by someone for a ridiculous reason, i tend to lay it on a little thick myself.

    GO DAN! completely justified.

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  71. First comment here, and I'm siding with the guy.

    You can't deny the girl the right to feel like the guy isn't cool or something. Okay, girl, feel it if you want to.

    BUT to mention it ? Like that ? When his e-mail indicated nothing about that kind of stuff ?

    Maybe Dan's e-mail didn't seem 100 % (can't help agreeing with that) and could have been a little shorter. Maybe. But I'd be bummed too if I received an email like the one the girl sent...

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  72. (oops, meant to say 100 % classy )

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  73. I agree with Dan and if he was a little off, it is understandable as he was probably pissed when writing this. She sounds like a true bitch.

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  74. @Anonymous 12:57 PM: "Um, there was just a comment from a guy who expected the girl to pay for their date because she asked him out. So I guess the jokes on you?"

    lol fail. I'll let you figure it out:
    "And I never expect the woman to pay for me, if she asks me out I do expect her to pay for herself, but not for me."

    'when I was an intern[...]"I've never had a girl pay for my dinner before"' exception confirmed

    "comparing two friends getting dinner to a courting relationship is fallacious"
    Is not. Friends are equal. They set a standard: everyone expects to pay for themselves. Courtship is about demonstrating EACH OTHER romantic interest. If money is romantic interest, then prostitutes get much romantic interest. Paying for someone else when you expect them to pay you back later is an empty gesture. You might as well just pay for yourself and perform actual romance.

    "the fact that men do the asking the vast majority of the time" correct

    "patriarchal culture[...]vir[g]in/whore dichotomy" outmoded notion relevant only to a declining troglodyte segment. Women have freedom. They simply don't like asking guys out. Feminist triumph!

    @hfro: "Not sure why you seem so flabbergasted that women do ask men out. It happens a lot, actually."
    See Anonymous(12:57 PM)'s "fact". It doesn't happen enough. Expecting the inviter to pay is NOT equal.

    @Anonymous(12:41 PM): "I pointed out that they can also treat each other." Exception. They don't expect it, hence the relationship is equal.

    "Also, you think it's funny that girls can ask guys out?" See @hfro. It happens only not often enough in practice. There's being nice, then there's getting used. This is a great formula for gaining at someone's expense.

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  75. He's a fuckwit for keeping a list of all the shit he paid for.
    But Laura? A guy who helps you paint and takes care of your home improvement shopping? Priceless. Take him OUT, or better yet, cook him a nice meal.
    A couple of clueless douches who don't realize how much they deserve each other.

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  76. I side with Dan, here. I wasn't even put off, really, by his email. I don't blame him for being offended at being called cheap.. I'm a feminist, and I do think about the whole "who pays" thing.. why should men always be expected to pay? but if someone invites you, then you end up at a really expensive place, why should you pay half? so perhaps the inviter = payor works best. once or twice someone has actually accepted my money when i offer and i realized "oh, we're just friends" because they're not trying to impress me too much. lol -- maybe i'm not a feminist! I don't know... it wouldn't turn me off, though, unless i discovered at some point that "cheap" is a lifestyle choice, in which case.. but i totally subscribe to the "don't be mad if they accept the money you offer" idea.

    where is laura in the comments?!?

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  77. I'm in the camp that thinks it's too bad they split up, because they deserve each other. They both sound like the sort of person I can't stand: high-maintenance types who get bent out of shape over petty issues.

    I'm uncomfortable letting a man spend a lot of money on a first date. If he asks me out somewhere expensive, and I don't know him well yet, I'll talk him down to something low-key and inexpensive like getting coffee. The reason is there are still some men out there who think that if they spend a lot of money on a woman, they're entitled to a kiss or even sex. I'm not a whore. I don't give out kisses or sex for money. I kiss men or go to bed to them only if I'm attracted to them and feel like doing it, and on that first date, I don't know if the attraction will be there or not.

    I will pay for myself on a first date unless the guy steps up and offers to pay for me. I admit I'm more attracted to the guys who step up and pay (we're talking about $3 for coffee here, hardly big spending), but I've never dumped a guy for not paying. I go into the date with the expectation that I will pay for myself, so if he does step up it's a pleasant surprise.

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  78. Gawd, I'm glad I'm a lesbian and don't have to navigate this shitty little dance. Part of the reason I love this blog and WWHM is that they make me feel better about the homophobia I face by showing me how crappy the hetero alternative is.

    Laura is a bitch for her passive-aggressive and entitled behavior. I assume that she has little to no idea what Dan's financial situation is, and behaving according to patriarchal bullshit standards makes her vulnerable to patriarchal bullshit.

    Dan is also a bitch for HIS passive-aggressive and entitled behavior. Withholding paying for a date because she didn't give him enough attention is ridiculous behavior. Expecting a physical return on what he did apparently pay for (and worse--expressing this expectation out loud!) is also a dick move. And as others on this thread have pointed out, pretty much any man who constantly defends himself as "a nice guy" is really a jerk. Truly nice people don't do things with ulterior motives. The "nice guy" who is upset because he fails to manipulate women into granting him sexual favors is actually a misogynistic asshole.

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  79. he did go a bit overboard with his reponse, but the sentiment is right.

    men shouldn't be expected to pay for the woman. in fact, it might be nice if women paid the first few times around.

    i'm a woman, and i never want a man to pay my way, and will even insist on paying for the first meal or bar tab with a date.

    it's lame to expect men to pay.

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  80. Dan is the man. Laura? Screw that money-grubbing emotional rollercoaster. He's right. It's 2009. If women want to not be treated like whores, women need to stop acting like whores.

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  81. If you invite someone to go to a certain venue and it's a date, you pay. It's a simple matter of courtesy. Hereby you avoid that your guest spend more than they can afford or are forced to admit that they cannot afford going on that particular sort of date.

    Gender is irrelevant.

    However I do appreciate when a man pays on the first date. Why?

    In short: A lot of guys seems to be fairly more select when it comes to spending their money than spending time with women. When you pay on the first date, it allows me to pretend that I'm on your top ten of romantic prospects rather than someone slightly more entertaining than friday night tv.

    However, guys, not letting a woman pay for you on a date is also a great turn off. I, for one, would interpret that as a sign of male insecurity, which is a definite red flag.

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  82. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Laura sounds like she has Seinfeld syndrome. Coming up with any petty reason to not like someone. I am just as guilty, I readily admit it, but I don't send crass emails or belittle the person. I just send a "it was nice meeting you, but I don't feel the chemistry, blah, blah, blah".
    I hope Dan finds someone who isn't so small minded. I hope I can learn from their mistakes.

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  83. To the anonyous "feminism lol" dude:

    I never said I *expected* the inviter to pay. In fact, I went out of my way to point out that it's ridiculous and vile for anyone to *expect* anyone else to pay.

    I just said that in dating scenarios -- as opposed to casual get-togethers between platonic friends -- that what typically happens is that the inviter pays, and very often men offer to pay either way. (As I mentioned, that's a societal convention, not a requirement, too, by the way.) This isn't carved in stone, nor should it be, in my opinion. But it does reflect a certain level of caring and courtesy, which, for some reason, seems to rub you the wrong way.

    I'm also not sure why the notion of one person treating another pesron to a nice evening is -- in your view, it seems -- inherently akin to one person taking unfair advantage of another. If someone opts to do something nice for somebody else, my first thought is, "How sweet," rather than, "Hold on a minute -- that's not equal." But hey, that's just me.

    FWIW, I usually offer to pay my own way if the guy has invited me out, and both our ways if I have invited the guy. And I usually follow through on the paying -- in fact, this is how I prefer it -- unless the guy raises a major fuss about it. In either case, this "dance" is largely symbolic, and what's most important is whether the guy treats me with courtesy and respect overall. I don't think I've ever kept as rigid tallies with anyone as either Dan and Laura did with each other. I also don't think it would ever be a make-or-break issue for me.

    I'm sorry you're so upset that more women don't ask out more men. You might find that the men who do get asked out the most frequently tend to be the ones who treat women with affection and respect, rather than an overbearing sense of superiority and a rigid, hostile demeanor. Good luck!

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  84. I'm siding with Dan on this one. It is 2009, and while it's gentlemanly to offer to pay, it's not necessary. Obviously, if he invited her, he should have paid, and that WAS cheap, but Laura sounds like a bitch.

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  85. Wow - the first in a long line of PLFMs that I actually feel for, or at least don't despise, the dude.

    Paying on a date is such a petty reason to be pissy, yet it seems to be such a contentious issue with so many people (men and women).

    As a guy I've gotten in trouble with picking up the entire check - even when I initiated the date.

    I've gotten in trouble when hesitating or mentioning "how do we want to do this."

    I've picked up the check to see what the total is and heard "Thanks so much for picking it up" when I had clearly assumed it wasn't a date.

    It's a minefield - yet I hardly think Dan's response was "psychotic" in any sense of the word. Maybe just "petty". But so was she.

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  86. I don't know, I think she was out of line for getting incredibly pissed off that she OMG! had to pay for her own movie ticket. Most of the women I know, like most of the men I know, have jobs and have their own money and pay their own way. Are there romantic evenings where the dude pays for everything? Yes. But there are also romantic evenings where the lady pays for everything. Or one party knows the other is pretty broke and covers everything, and it works out evenly later on.

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  87. Here's how simple this issue is:

    We've often observed that women can choose from a fairly large pool of men.

    Given the choice of a man who will pay for things and a man who won't, most women would choose the economically favorable option. I know I will. Not paying is a deal breaker for me. Does that mean there are some great guys I won't get a chance to date? Well sure. But why do I care when there are great guys who WILL foot the bill?

    Most guys won't LET you pay. I don't know where people are finding these guys who demand it. Is that a younger man thing? I haven't dated anybody under 50 in the past decade so maybe that's why I've missed it.

    >>Or one party knows the other is pretty broke and covers everything, and it works out evenly later on.<<

    In a LTR, I am totally cool with this and have no problem shuffling money back and forth depending on who is flush that week. But that's a LTR. Not two dates.

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  88. Second question, WTF, who are these people who after one or two dates are helping each other paint and move?

    I would NEVER ask a guy to help with something like that so early in the relationship. If I am asking you to move furniture, we are at the point in our relationship where you are going to get one hell of an x-rated thank you.

    Any girl asking a guy she isn't even intimate with yet for free labor is crossing the line.

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  89. Guys who insist on paying for me on the first date don't get second dates. Offering is good, but when I try to pay my own way and don't get to, I feel like I'm being bribed, or bought, or something.

    Not that I think they're bad guys, but I figured out long ago that I couldn't be with an "old fashioned" guy who felt a need to take care of me. Or whatever.

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  90. gotta side w/ the sisterhood on this one.

    if dan was a smart dude, he's have been the one fronting all the costs from the get-go. this would've impressed her and she then would have most likely upped the ante and chipped in after seeing his graciousness.

    the dude was an ass to do the whole buy onle one movie ticket thing. makes him look like an asshole when she's standing there probably gaping thinking he's a cheap fucker.

    he blew it from the begining.

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  91. okay after reading all the comments, I'm exhausted!

    whats left to say about this?

    They're both petty! Put another nail in this coffin, it's dead!!!!!!

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  92. Males provide natural resources, and females provide fertile eggs and a womb.

    Yes, as a society we should have advanced beyond this, but clearly some women haven't.

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  93. This is kind of creepy because my parents' names' are Dan and Laura...

    First they keep referring to the planters which are really important for some reason. And in Dan's second letter, he says "...graciously supplying greeeens the whole time I was with you"

    I realize now that he meant money but while I read the post, I was thinking marijuana >.<

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  94. Thank gods I'm gay, and don't have to deal with this sort of nonsense. The guy who invites assumes that he's going to pay, but the guy who's invited seems like a douche if he doesn't at least offer. And if either guy is taken up on the offer of payment, they don't get their knickers in a twist.

    I think fuglyhorses summed it up quite nicely. Frankly, in the current dating situation, females get to set the rules. Who cares if it's arbitrary? You want to fuck her, you'll pay. Clearly, she's petty, materialistic, and the rest, but if you want in to her trousers, you'll be "that guy" who "gets the pleasure" of paying her gold-digging ways to get the pleasure of fucking her pussy.

    In this situation though, I do side with Dan. Frankly, when someone says something that petty and twatty to me, I'm most likely to reciprocate with something along the lines of "Let's now detail how much of a cunt /you/ are." Yes, he outlined all the nice things he's done, but that's mainly to bring to light that she ignored it all because he didn't pay for a movie ticket. "So you're complaining about a fucking movie ticket, but somehow have magically forgotten all the other things I /did/ do for you. Real classy, you gold digging whore."

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  95. When I am on a date, I pay my own way. Expecting someone to pay for me is ridculous and patronising. I work for a living. I have my own money. The point of a date is to spend time with someone in order to get to know them, not to see if they will suppliment my finances. And vice versa, I might add. As an added bonus, people who insist on paying for you usually end up expecting you to return that payment with some form of intimacy. So you have one person doing the selling and one person doing the buying. This leads to...unpleasantness.

    Dan went overboard, but Laura needs a smackin'.

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  96. @hfro: Nuh uh. You don't get it both ways: "it's ridiculous and vile for anyone to *expect* anyone else to pay [...] But it does reflect a certain level of caring and courtesy" in effect says
    (1) if you're caring and courteous, then you pay. (Equivalently, you either pay or you're not caring and courteous.)
    (2) You should be caring and courteous. (Understood)
    (3) Therefore, you should pay. (Follows from 1 and 2.)
    This is another way to raise an expectation. You either illogically believe what you write or you're insincere.

    "I'm also not sure why the notion of one person treating another pe[rs]on to a nice evening"
    Contrary to your (popular) opinion, people do have 'nice' evenings without someone paying for someone else. Friends do.

    "You might find that the men who do get asked out the most frequently tend to be the ones who treat women with affection and respect"
    lol Enough respect to go out with one after another [ad nauseum]. You might find out you're wrong about the douchebags who have success attracting women. That skill needs to be learned with practice.

    "I'm sorry you're so upset that more women don't ask out more men."
    You should be. They don't do it enough to make up for the disparity in who pays for whom if everyone followed your rule. Not equal.

    @fuglyhorseoftheday: "Not paying is a deal breaker for me."
    What a shining example of feminism!

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  97. The exchange of money within the context of dating seems to be either viewed as:

    1. Something akin to an implied exchange of gods.

    In that case, men and women may insist on going dutch so no debt is incurred and neither has to entertain the though of having bought someone's favours og having been bought.

    Personally I find that way of thinking rather sad as it entails that being generous and/or the object of generosity is the equivalent of being a john and/or a prostitute.

    2. Something akin to an implied exchange of gifts.

    In that case, not letting another person pay for you is rude as hereby you imply that you think that he/she will use it as a means of bullying you and/or you are too petty to return a favour.

    I like this approach as it's founded on the idea that your gift will returned in some shape or another, with interest, excatly because you would never demand it to be so, but rather inspire generosity in the hearts of others.

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  98. Judging by their behavior, neither Dan nor Laura are old enough to go out on dates without their mommies.

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  99. There are some really well thought out responses on this one, and it was a good read. I have to say I don't really care much for Laura. If money was that much of an issue for her, she should have asked up front about it. Imagine how much anguish and fuss could have been avoided if she had! It's so much easier to just ask, even if you get burned. A lot of people will appreciate that you've been direct. Granted - some don't, but I prefer the type that do.

    So, once we get past the part where she's not direct enough to just ask, we get to the part where she's fretting over the cost of a movie ticket after the guy helped her paint some portion of her house.

    What?

    Sorry Laura, I'm going to have to go with Dan on this one. His email does make him sound like a bit of a jerk, but righteous indignation often fuels us to say things we would later take back or regret.

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  100. I'm just surprised because they were apparently high the whole time... who gets so bent out of shape while smoking the "greeeeens"!?

    Anyway, I would have sided with Dan except for the whole "i deserved some kind of affection" bullshit. So I'd say they're both cockbaggers! Thanks for sticking up for the male sex there, Dan...

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  101. He should have at the very least offered to pay for the ticket. It's good manners, especially when you invite someone out. I do that with my friends and we're not even dating!!! Also, methinks he doth protest too much that he's sooooooo generous. I'm guessing he's not.

    On the other hand, if you offered to pay for drinks, that's that. It would have been nice if he asked "are you sure?" but we don't know that he didn't. Seems to me, though, from his email, that he wasn't really planning on paying for anything for her unless he HAD to. Also, he does not DESERVE anything, fucker. Sense of entitlement, much?

    In conclusion, she's a bit wrong for going back and thinking about the drinks, but he's got more stuff wrong, from the information we have. Plus, I just can not abide the whole sense of entitlement crap. Like "Oh, I bought you a drink, I think I deserve SOMETHING *wink wink*"

    Pisses me off.

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  102. Look, Laura was an unclassy bitch and shouldn't have an *expectation* that he should pay, but Dan is still a condescending douchebag.

    If you need proof, observe these gems:

    For some reason you have these outrageous expectations that a man can only be classy if he gives the woman he's interested in a total free ride. (We don't have an expectation of a free ride. We DO have an expectation that the inviter will offer to pay for the invitee... we may not take you up on it but it's a gesture that says "I know how to share my toys.")

    You actually chose to focus your emotions on whether I was picking up your bar tab instead of allowing you to possess a modicum of self reliance. (First of all, fuckwit, you aren't "ALLOWING" her to "possess a modicum of self-reliance." Controlling much?)

    Oh sure there are plenty of sugar daddies to be found out there, but how many of them will give you the same deep belly laughs where your cheeks hurt from smiling so hard?
    ("Deep belly laughs?" Seriously? And sugar daddies? Expecting that someone who invites you out is going to offer to pay is general date etiquette, not looking for a sugar daddy. I'd like to interject at this point that, yes, Laura is a MASSIVE douchette for offering money and then getting pissed that he took it.)

    If you hold on to those outdated beliefs of yours, then you should also be eagar to service the man that is bankrolling you too, b/c that's what is expected from that type of exchange. (Do I even need to explain why THAT is offensive?)

    I'd say that's painfully shallow, forgetful, and hurtful that you so easily overlooked my previous generosity. (Hurtful? You have to be kidding me with this shit.)

    I feel obligated to recap the charges I DID pay for since you are clearly caught up on the two that I didn't. Starting with paying for that second slice of pizza you split with (blah, blah, yada, yada), i STILL covered the popcorn and soda even though you asked me so sourly. (If you can recap all this bullshit about what you paid for, then you're as bad as Laura the Douchette. It means you were thinking about it.)

    I was feeling rather unappreciated and also somewhat confused by how you were behaving. (You were "feeling unappreciated?" On a first date? Don't get me wrong, guys have feelings too, blah blah blah. But as a card-carrying member of the vagina-ed gender, *I* don't have all of these goddamn bitch-ass emotions.)

    I showed the quality of my character and had been a complete gentleman throughout by running out specially for drinks, running up and down the stairs for water, (Are you fucking kidding me with this?) being genuinely concerned for your friend's well being, (If it was so "genuine," you wouldn't be pointing it out right now) making your neighbor's children laugh, entertaining your friends and even helping you paint! (Apparently a person acting like a human being somehow equates to "quality of character." )

    So after the movie when I said that I thought I'd get more of a response from you, or at the very least a goodbye kiss, yeah, REALLY.(YES, BECAUSE YOU AREN'T, LIKE, A SUGAR DADDY OR ANYTHING.)

    Overall, you need to re-examine the values you look for in a man. (You probably need to re-examine your values. Because I'm pretty sure you're not looking for a woman. A blow-up doll, maybe, a prostitute, definitely.)

    I work really hard and long hours and put up with a ton of crap for my dollars. (Wow, you mean like...uh...that thing called LIFE? Or..uh...WORK?) I don't think you can say the same, yet you have an outrageous sense of self-entitlement that is pretty undeserved. (Anticipating a date will at least off to pay when THEY asked YOU out isn't "self-entitlement.”)

    One last thing, you can keep those planters. It will almost cover the cost of the burger and movie ticket while saving me travel time and keeping my dignity. (Too late for the dignity, there, Danny. )

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  103. The girl is rude to mention money in such a snotty way. I might react the same way. I thought this was psychotic letters from *men*?

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  104. Dan overreacted but is totally right. i dont blame him for overreacting either, because Laura is a spoiled bitch. i hope Laura is the one who submitted this and is now eating her words.

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  105. lol jews disputing money
    how prototypical!

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  106. Weasel, you're wonderful and all [especially that last WWHM], but what the hell is this?

    There are two options. We women can either ask to be equals, or forfeit being equals. We can't say, "respect me as a self-sufficient individual...except when it inconveniences me." That's the sort of thing that spurs misogyny in some would-be nice guys, and spurs manipulativeness and incompetence in would-be cool women.

    If I ask to be treated as an equal, I can cover my own tiny expenses to spend time with a guy I LIKE--for his time, not his money. It's not like she's being asked to pay for HIM, too. So why is it okay for us to whine so much? Double-standard, much? I thought we were fighting to get RID of these double-standards--it's a two-way street.

    Here's what IS lame: if a guy ensures me in advance that he's going to pay for us both, and I agree to it, and then he changes his mind with no warning [i.e., after the bill arrives, or after convincing me I didn't have to bring money]. But expecting me to cough up from the get-go? Sure--he's paying for HIMself, why can't I do the same, if I'm enjoying myself?

    If I LIKE a guy, I don't care if he drops money on me or not--I would ONLY CARE if he were a guy I DIDN'T actually like! And if I didn't like him, why would I go out with him in the first place?

    Sadly, there ARE a lot of women out there who will scrounge up all the money a guy's got and then return it with neither sex NOR affection NOR respect. I've known many of these women, and it makes me glad that I'm into men. Worse, I've had a lot of male friends who were INITIALLY sweet guys before being duped by some girl they really liked who was only using them for something [often their money]. That's the saddest thing--these men are being held accountable for OTHER members of their sex who happened to be assholes, while they themselves tried the whole chivalry thing and just had it thrown in their naive little faces.

    Can you blame a guy for wanting a woman who asks for equality to, you know, be OKAY with putting in her share, SOMETIMES? Otherwise, women are put on some subpar level of being a toy to impress and win over...which only further perpetuates the idea that women are men's trophies.

    Sure, if he invited her out [we don't even KNOW, do we?] then it's nice for him to offer to pay...but it's not a big deal. If a man wouldn't hang out with me if I didn't pay for him, I doubt I'd be into him, either. Only fair that a man would feel the same way.

    And, as a woman, I know women are not inherently BORN into bitchiness--that bitchiness is made.

    One way it's made is by santioning that women can do no wrong while men need to be on their toes and "earn" everything from women...

    I don't think that's fair. It's like some new form of Original Sin. "You were born a man, so you're an asshole until proven otherwise! Treat me like an equal in my own right but make sure to hold the door for me and buy my drinks, and, no, of course I won't return the favor! You have to repent for being a dickhead!"

    I think Dan's letter was reasonable--it seems hyperjudgmental to peg HIM as the asshole, here, but not her. Clearly he was angry, and anger doesn't flatter anyone, but nothing he said was REALLY uncalled for.

    Let's ridicule stupid men because they're stupid people, not because they're male people. Same goes for women. There are plenty of awful women out there, and plenty of great men.

    I mean, come on. Would you take someone out again who was [as he tells it] cold to you after you tried really hard to impress her, and then made a hugefuck deal over calling you an asshole for not paying for one goddamn movie ticket? She didn't just bring it up as a MILD offense; it was a DEAL-breaker for her. Would that sound like a laid-back, sweet girl who actually LIKED you?

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  107. ...I guess my reaction to Dan would've been less sympathetic if he'd been writing that email to a girl who'd been more tactful towards him. I think she deserved nothing less than the response she got. All in all, he might've been impolite, but it was negligible compared to Laura's bitchtasticness.

    I'm sorry I went on such a bitchrant, though... Holy fuck, I did not mean for that to be so long, nor to sound so critical. Forgive me. ^^"

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  108. I kept expecting Weas to jump out and say "Suprise! Just Kiddin!!" Because I really favored Dan in this story over Laura, and I kept waiting for the "other shoe to drop"

    I bet the 70% thing was something like they got burgers, he hauled out a $10 and she paid the rest, which was probably $3 or $4.

    In my world, which is kind of a small town world, friends, even new friends, might help each other paint.

    And another thing, I think when he was saying that thing about the guy paying and expecting payback, he was referring to her antiquated assumption about guys paying - if she wanted that, she might expect the other half of the old fashioned scenario to go with it.

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  109. While I agree Dan was pretty harsh, it was not totally uncalled for.
    Yes, it is polite for the inviter to pay for the invitee..it's not a requirement. And while she may have been surprised, it is completely unnecessary for someone to get so offended or "boggled" at that. Like Dan said, it's 2009.

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  110. If everything else was great, and his not paying for her ticket was the ONLY reason she didn't kiss him goodnight, then she's a spoiled bitch. Probably the type who witholds sex for real or imagined infringements.

    That said, Dan should have taken the high road rather than listing all the things he's done for her. It sounds defensive and weird, as if he was keeping track of his input vs hers.

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  111. It's not often you see a post on here where both parties are so plainly at fault. Laura for bringing up something so petty that most couples wouldn't care - and probably would have figured it out BEFORE dating - and Dan for stepping over the line himself. I would be on his side completely, were it not for claiming he was a "quality guy." I'm afraid douchebags calling themselves as such has ruined that line for me (sorry to all the worthwhile fellows out there).

    They're both epic twerps. This is the sort of thing that reminds of that Barenaked Ladies song.

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  112. Hee @ "epic twerps." So true.

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  113. Here's the thing: while the "I thought I'd get more" comment of Dan's was creeptastic, I wouldn't, if I were in Laura's shoes, bother to even bring it up unless it was along the lines of "You know, no one owes you a kiss or physical contact." Not mention money and tie it to dating/physical contact/whatever--that's just gross.

    Then again, I wouldn't send an off-the-charts rant like Dan's. Listing off all of the ways he was good to her, and how she kindasorta owes him for it? Really? Eeew.

    If someone helped me paint my house, etc., I'd probably take them to lunch or dinner as a thank you, or invite them over for dinner (if they were good friends and I trusted them). If I was interested in them, I'd let them know after the thank you lunch or dinner.

    If a guy sent me a snotty and whiny email like Laura's, I wouldn't even bother answering it. I'd figure I dodged a bullet and that was it. Or, at the very most, if I was Dan I might just email her back one line, and it would say, "You know, you can keep the planters. Bye."

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  114. Weasel's always been saying he'd someday post a submission from a guy. Maybe this is it.

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  115. I'm siding with Dan on this.

    Why's everyone ragging on him about keeping a "running list" of things he's paid for? I don't know about you dense fuckers but it would only take me a minute to think back about what i've paid for. It's unlikely he's actively keeping tally.

    And whose to say he's bitching about not getting a kiss after paying for shit? maybe he thought he'd get a kiss after they're obviously intimate enough for him to he helping her move her shit around.

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  116. Well, most people might remember what they've spent, but they don't send out an e-mail detailing it.

    And why even mention getting something physical in return if that's NOT a motivation?

    But hey, we're dense fuckers, so don't take our word for it.

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  117. Ok Here's my take on it... They are both self centered attention hogs who love playing the tit-for-tat game. In my opinion if you are going to go out with someone you should always discuss who is paying BEFORE you go on the date. And Laura is out to lunch if she was being serious about being mad because she offered to pay for their drinks and he accepted her offer....as for the movie ticket...if they had talked about it before hand it never would have been an issue because they would know what to expect. Personally I like it when a guys pays my way on a date, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...however, that being said if a guy wanted to go dutch or alternate who pays I wouldn't blow him off. I'd say Dan ranted just a little too much but, with good reason and Laura is kind of a snob and really childish. They both have issues....but, then again who doesn't! :)

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  118. My opinion, for what it is worth:

    They both over-reacted to small shit.

    Laura was a bit of a hypersensitive uptight bitch on the money issue.

    Dan let her get under his skin and reacted like a true born asshole, digging at anything he thought might get her feeling as shitty as him.

    I'm sure they could be lovely people, but they definitely fucked things up in a hurry this time around.

    But to tell the truth, they both kinda bore me. >.>

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  119. I'm siding with Dan, but just barely because his email gets a little long and whiny. I don't understand why people write these long responses to those who've spurned their affections trying to prove the other wrong.

    I'm a woman and I expect to pay my own way on the first few dates. If a guy offers and I'm comfortable with him (i.e. I don't think he expects something in return other than my company) I will let him pay for me, but he is not downgraded if he doesn't offer.

    Once I get into a relationship it tends to be a little more back and forth. I get dinner this week, he gets movie tickets next week.

    If who pays for things is such a big deal to Laura maybe she needs to lay it out to any perspective dates that she's "traditional" about dating or some other euphemism to give her suitors a hint that she expects to be treated. There are certainly guys out there who will meet her expectations, but they need a little clue first.

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  120. it sounds like two people who had highly incompatible expectations. i've actually had this kind of thing happen to me--i've been berated for presuming to pay for a woman AND berated for not paying (different people, naturally). the one time long ago that i tried to agree with someone beforehand on what was expected it totally poisoned the atmosphere. it felt like i was expected to read minds, and if i could not, it was treated as my failing and a point worthy of disdain or mockery.

    a reasoned, open dialogue to me is the indicator that there is relationship potential--it shows concern and desire to share a burden, and a recognition of and basic respect for the other person's views on the matter. if i've made the invitation, i will offer to pay--but if i am presumed to be the person to pick up the tab, there would be no further dates. granted, that is not an issue for me now, but that was my policy and it was ultimately successful.

    i can't really fault dan's balance sheet--given that he was clearly ready to let it rest after the first email, until she began the escalation. it needed not be so harsh, but it seems like a linear progression of vitriol within the correspondence, not an exponential one, and i understand why he was offended. i wonder what her response was (if any)?

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  121. I'm siding just a little bit with Dan here. I mean, it sounds like he wasn't 100% sure that she was interested or that it was a real Date and not just an outing between two friends. Laura could have been more up front with him and actually said something to the effect of "I think you should be paying for my ticket," but she didn't, because that would sound pretty superficial and demanding for a first date. If she doesn't like the sound of it coming out of her mouth on the first date, then maybe she shouldn't be hiding behind her email to say it days later.

    Hell, I'd go out with Dan. He sounds funny, and I could use a date with a job (so I'm not paying for BOTH of us,) and a sense of humor.

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  122. Who can choose? These people are scary. Apparently neither of them know how to take the high road, and both of them are craaaazy nitpicky! Laura freaks about about everything Dan didn't pay for, and Dan has a cow over everything he did pay for! (including 70% of a burger, wow, are you planning on billing this girl?) I do feel kind of sad for the planters over in no man's land though. They are truly innocent in this matter, like children in a custody battle.

    And as to Anonymous 6:27...really? That's what you're going to post? A Jewish joke? That's what you got out of this?

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  123. To the "lol feminism" guy:

    You might want to try reading whole sentences (even paragraphs) rather than just selectively parsing out phrases when you make your critiques. I think you failed to grasp a lot of what I was saying by just clinging to bits and pieces.

    Simply put, if a guy offers to pay for me on a date, I think, "That's nice." In other words, I view it as a caring and courteous gesture. I don't know how I could look at it any other way, frankly.

    If, on the other hand, the guy doesn't offer to pay, then I pull out my wallet and generally don't think twice about it. In other words, I don't have the expectation that someone else will pay my way.

    Either way, I'll offer to pay.

    Appreciating being treated to a meal (or other date activity) is *not* the same thing as expecting to be treated to a meal.

    In fact, they're kind of opposite! If I expected to be treated to dinner, why would I view it as a caring and courteous gesture? It wouldn't be remarkable at all.

    I agree with your point that friends can have a nice evening without one paying the other's way. (In fact, I never said otherwise.) In dating, though, often one person will treat the other. While this isn't by any means mandatory for a successful date, it seems to be quite common. You don't need to reiterate how patently unfair you think it is that people do kind things for one another, particularly when one of those things involves paying for a movie ticket or something. I think I read you loud and clear on this point. Although I must admit I'm none the wiser as to why you're so grievously offended that some people pay for other people on dates. What business is it of yours?

    Regarding your last two points toward me: You seem to have contempt for men who get asked out frequently by women, and women (in general) for not asking men out enough. I'm not sure how you reconcile these two viewpoints. You seem pretty hard to please.

    Thanks for sharing your opinions on how feminism must function vis-a-vis dating in order to meet your highly specific moral standards. It's been most illuminating. Perhaps you should write a book about feminism. That way, you could provide material for the instruction and edification of a much broader audience than this blog permits. Best of luck, troll!

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  124. One vote for two jerks, here, but Dan's letter scarcely qualifies as psychotic, if at all. He's not even following up or stalking, so it doesn't seem like he's makes that big of a thing of it.

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  125. Dan 1, Laura 0.

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  126. People who do things without getting something in return at least expect that it doesn't get thrown back at them. We can't say for sure, but Dan might not have thought much about helping her paint, or buying seven tenths of her pizza or whatever. But when she turned around and said "WHY DIDN'T YOU PAY FOR THE TICKET OMG UR SO SELFISH!!!!!", Dan perceived that to be very selfish of her and felt it was unfair of her to expect even more.

    He got angry, and I'm sure we all know that when we get angry everything insignificant froths up to the top. Soon enough, he was able to dig up all the figures and draw up a balance sheet that wouldn't have existed had she not called in the tab herself. It's not a perfect response, to fight fire with fire, but can any of us truthfully say we've always responded perfectly to everything?

    I could be wrong, maybe Dan is as much of a precious entitled bitch as the email makes him out to be, but maybe he's not abnormally so, and this just brought out the worst in him.

    I guess, based on most of the previous PLFM posts, it's easy to assume that the longer an email is, the more psychotic it is. But just look at Laura's bitchy, demanding response to Dan's first letter (the catalyst for that probably would have really helped us) and tell me that it's not as psychotic even with the smaller word count.

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  127. Dude, if these letters had been the other way around and Dan were the woman and Laura were the man, NO ONE would be saying he was being "harsh". People here are calling Dan a harsh douchebag...okay, the responses girls have given guys on here have often been just as "harsh", and there've been girls on here who've basically admitted to doing things like dating a guy out of pity...er, why is THAT not called out as the douchebaggery that it obviously is?

    Dan was NOT being that fucking harsh. He was pissed, yeah, and rightfully so, but girls on here have been as bad.

    And I AM a girl. I just hate seeing women being held to a lesser standard than men--BY women.

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  128. I'm siding with Dan. We get more insight out of his e-mail, and Laura is way too passive-aggressive.

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  129. I'm definitely with Dan. Judging by his email, Laura was already bitchy before they even got to the cinema, without him knowing why. And even after that he apologized. His first email was nothing but nice.
    And the response? More bitching from Laura. Honestly, she sounds like she wants to be bought. So, we have: Laura bitchy, Dan nice, Laura bitchy and greedy.

    Really, I'd be pissed too, if I were him.


    I don't know, maybe it's different in the States but as a European girl, I'm grateful if a guy pays at a date but I *certainly* don't expect it.

    (Apologies for any errors in my English, I'm no native speaker)

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  130. Hmm. This is a hard one... I think that he should have payed up. The first few dates the man should pay, and refuse payment from the lady. However when 3, 4, 5 come around she should start paying her way.

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  131. HE should have paid because a man should ALWAYS pay the first few dates? Seriously, are you living in a 1950s time warp?

    If I ask, I always plan to pay. If he asks, I offer to pay for mine. I've never assumed a man HAS to pay for my food, ticket, drinks, etc.

    My SO and I usually split the costs. If I buy dinner, he buys the movie tickets and junk food.

    Really folks, it's not that hard. If you respect and like being with someone, I don't see why WHO pays has to be such a gawdawful issue.

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  132. @hfro: Bullshit.
    "The one who asks, pays. But in the beginning, even if the woman asks, the man should still offer to pay. (Sorry.) Once in a while, the woman should offer to pay, and the man should refuse, but then if the woman says, "No really, I've got this," then he should let the woman pay without making a federal case out of it. Having said all of that, I think a guy should dump any woman who never offers to pay."
    Keyword: should. You don't say "can" or "it would be nice". Look at the volumes you write trying to reconcile your cognitive dissonance to me.

    And look how absurdly complicated that nonsense is. No one should do anything but pay for themselves. They can do anything else.

    The last 2 points actually do make sense if you can make yourself think beyond a superficial level. (Hint: it's the difference between is and should.) Good luck!

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  133. Chick here, yup she was petty and wrong! Not to mention classless for bitching about it in the first place. I think it's absolutely ghetto, sounds like they had a great connection and she blew it off over something miniscule.

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  134. Oh God, I think I side with the guy here. I see a spin-off blog about chicks who think they're owed more than they're offered. . . . .
    Sounds like she was stringing him along and accepting his help and generosity in other areas and than having a fit that he refused to bankroll the entire thing and his admission that he was confused about her intentions when she didn't pony up a kiss seem fair enough. Tell the guy what you're playing at lady. If you're not interested, say so, and then you don't get to be mad that he doesn't pay for you. If you are interested, well, never mind, clearly you're not interested.

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  135. I just wanted to mention- I doubt dude was keeping a running tally. I think it's more likely that he tallied his totals up AFTER Laura proved herself to be such a money-grubbing parasite. He probably got the email, and said to himself, "Hey, wait a minute, I've paid for......"

    Judging from his initial email to her, he just doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would have kept a tally all along. I think that given her reaction, it's sort of normal that he would choose to point out the things he'd paid for.

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  136. She's cheap and he's cheap. Not often a good combination.

    It's probably a good idea for him not to invite women on dates he's not OK paying for.

    She, for her part, should not offer to pay for things if she's going to get bent out of shape about it.

    They both sound unlikeable.

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  137. I kinda wanted to side with him, if he was telling the truth. As a women I think its perfectly acceptable to pay for myself, as long as he was upfront about it in the first place.

    Not everyone is made of money and in this time of rampent unemployment I think there should probably be more check splitting.

    Besides I've knowen too many chicks who looked at men as free drink and dinner machines.

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  138. Based on the informatin provided, I'm siding with Dan. If they had such a great time, it's stupid to get hung up over money. But I'm inclined to think that there's something here we're not getting, either that Laura really WASN'T that into him and the movie ticket, etc. is just an excuse for her not to tell him, "You smell bad," "You're not THAT funny," or "I just don't feel it with you."

    But, yeah, based on what's here, Laura's kind of buhtarded.

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  139. Seriously, if he payed for soda and popcorn, that was MORE than fair.

    I am a female and I think Laura is looking for a free ride and Dan is the one in the right here. :|

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  140. "Where *I* come from, it is 2009 and its a great place to live. This is where women aren't looked at as 'the fairer (read "weaker") sex, but seen as equals to men. Its not the 1950's which was a time of one-income households, but a time of shared burdens."

    I'm still not sure as to whether he should have paid for her ticket or not (since I don't know whether he was the one who suggested seeing a film) and therefore whether or not it was petty of her to bring up having to pay for herself. I have a lot of feminist friends, being a feminist myself, and most of them insist on paying their own way. However, I still don't think that this takes away from the fact that Dan is a complete TOOL.

    Only selfish pricks use the women's rights movement to weasel out of being polite and chivalrous. In his mind equality between the sexes means that he doesn't have to pay on dates or hold open doors and women are encouraged to work WHILE they rais his children. I don't think he realizes that society is only being held back by people like him, nor does he care really.

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  141. mr. mrs. fangfaceJuly 2, 2009 at 12:47 PM

    It seems that Dan and Laura are equally douchey. However, we do know for a fact that Dan lacks the foresight or self-control to keep from throwing a net tantrum. I'm guessing that there's an equally tantrumy reply from Laura that somehow didn't make it here.

    P.S. Generally, whoever does the inviting is the one who pays. I have no idea who invited who or if that's not how Dan and Laura do things. In any case, Team mr. mrs. fangface. Because I don't throw net tantrums and went by myself to see Star Trek. :D

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  142. This reminds me of a date I went on at 15. Many, many years ago. Even back then I could see that there was no particular reason the "man" should pay, and even if there WAS, the rule probably didn't apply to a pair of kids at the local disco. As we got near the door, he said quietly "Give us your 50p". Silently I handed him a coin. "Er, um" he continued, blushing slightly. "Have you got a note (bill)?" So what he wanted was for me to pay for myself but to give him sufficient cash for him to flash at the doorman in a clear implication that he was a man of means paying for his date. And presumably give me my change somewhere out of eyesight. At least, I hope so. Sadly for him, I couldn't help. Even then though, even at that age, I might have sniggered with my friends (OK I definitely sniggered with my friends) but I wasn't nasty to him, even went out a couple more times and had fun. Laura, you might not have liked what Dan did, but you could have just moved on and left him to it.

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  143. Man... if I was on a date with a guy who refused to let me pay half way, I think I'd dump his ass on the spot.... no, seriously.

    I like to think of myself as an independent, self reliant girl. I like to meet someone half way.... I definitely don't want to feel like I "owe" you for something you've bought, or that I need to be gushing and grateful. I dated someone, long ago, who tried to buy me everything in the world... he tried to buy my affection... he'd drop dollars like he was in some stupid rap video buying his bitch some ice... *eye roll*

    It gets old. I hate it.

    Laura, you're a douche. Guys arn't mind readers.... if you have expectations in your head about what you want, SAY IT. Clearly. Sometimes slowly AND clearly.

    If I'm on a date, I make it clear that I expect to go 50-50. Then, if he refuses, I have the right to be irritated.

    If you're too pussy to speak your mind and speak up about what you want, don't bother bitching about it after. Good luck finding someone clairvoyant enough to read your mind in the future though.

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  144. @Jessica: F-f-f-f-fucktarded

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  145. @Robin

    You, Madam, are now the proud owner of not one, but TWO shiny Internets.

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  146. Really? Really? Sounds like deserve each other...

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  147. To the "lol feminism" guy:

    Uh, yeah. I'll confess that I honestly thought the "who invites, pays" thing was kind of the standard and overwhelmingly prevalent dating etiquette these days. (Still do, actually.) I've always seen it as a pretty fair and unbiased rule of thumb. So I guess I stand by this point of view.

    Perhaps the workaround here for men who share your frame of mind is to hold out and only date women who ask them first. This way, you wouldn't be out any money.

    Regarding the "men should offer to pay" thing: I'll concede that that is pretty old-fashioned. However, my experience has always been that men are pretty adamant about doing this. In fact, I've had some very hostile and awkward moments on dates just offering to pick up the check -- not to mention the ugliness that can occur when insisting. The word "should" is perhaps overstating it, but it simply reflects my life experience. This is likely a function of my age, area of the country I live in, socioeconomic status, or some combination of the three. I don't doubt that the men paying thing is far less the case in other people's realms. Either way, I still am flattered when a man does pay, and I do offer to pay, and it doesn't bother me when I do wind up paying, whatever the circumstances. Whether or not you regard this as cognitive dissonance is really not too significant to me.

    Yes, you're right: All of this *is* "absurdly complicated" compared to the "no one should pay for anyone else on a date, ever" mentality. I've got to hand it to you, that is the essence of simplicity for sure. I guess what I see as one of the most pleasant aspects of dating and romance is the opportunity for both parties to do nice things for one another, and with one another, and this often entails activities that cost money. So I'm pretty comfortable standing by the opinion that traditional dating (where people actually take each other out, as opposed to just accompanying each other on dates) is totally appropriate -- and I think it also makes life a bit more fun. Whatever.

    FWIW, I'm guessing that the people you date are too blown away by your wit, charm, and effervescence to even think about who pays for what. Good for you!

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  148. I'm with the "they deserve each other" crowd. While yes Laura and her unspoken expectations are incredibly douchey, Dan is just as much the catty and self-important bitch (nice running tab loser). I'm amazed that either of these people even have friends--can you imagine trying to buy them gifts, worrying that Laura has already secretly decided what you should get her and that Dan expects a gift that is equal to or better than the one he last got you (as evidenced by the receipt he's still got in his wallet).

    As for the whole chivalry thing, when I was single it was a moot point for me. I live in a somewhat depressed area, but telecommuting guaranteed me a really good living. Pretty much every guy I dated made less than me, and I wasn't about to make them pay my way to prove some obsolete point about my own self-worth. My SO and I have been together about four years, but if I was Laura we wouldn't have gotten past the first date. It was the dead of winter and his car died on the way to dinner. We were maybe half a mile from my house. He started pushing while I was steering, but after a while I could see he was freezing. So I offered to switch for a bit. And he accepted. I was out pushing a car in heels in 10-degree weather. We left his car in my neighbor's drive, picked mine up, and got to the restaurant only to realize he'd left his wallet in his dead car.

    Possibly the worst first date ever, but even then I could tell he was an awesome guy, and he's never been anything less than an awesome guy since. As corny as it sounds, I'm glad I proved I wasn't a stuck-up bitch and got out and pushed that night.

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  149. I think I gotta side with Laura on this one for sure.

    I was raised with the belief that I am a lady and if a guy truly wants something, hes gonna crack his wallet for it! And this belief has held true throughout my entire dating experience.

    The guys that are too cheap to take you out on a date are the ones that aren't really that interested in you. The ones that will go to great lengths to make sure the date is perfect, those are the keepers.

    I do expect a guy to pay for a date if he is the one that asked me out. I also expect him come to the door to pick me up,open doors for me, and just treat me like a lady. Okay, go ahead and call me old-fashioned or whatever, but that is how I feel.

    If I were in her position and a guy asked me out to the movies but then only bought a ticket for himself, yeah I would be pissed! I would probably not be interested in seeing him again. For all of you saying "Laura overreacted..it was juuust a movie ticket!" it can go the other way too. If its just a movie ticket, why couldnt he have bought hers?

    Now, I dont expect a guy to pay for everything, all the time. Just in the beginning. It shows that he is willing to invest in having a relationship with me. Once I'm dating a guy, I have no problem paying the bill once in a while when he is feeling broke.

    A friend of mine (we were on the friends-but-starting-to-like-eachother-more-than-friends stage) was having money problems due to being laid off for the season but I still liked him and I wanted to date him, so I did pay for us to go out to coffee and also for dinner. I didnt feel angry about that because I knew him and I knew if he did have money he would have paid in a heartbeat, so I had no problem.

    Overall, I think guys are just using the "Oh its 2009. Women are independent" excuse to be tight asses. Women may be independent, but we are still ladies and we still deserve to be treated like them.

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  150. Female feminist who does a lot of dating chiming in here....

    I always want to pay my own way on a date, regardless of who asked whom. It's nice sometimes to have the check picked up for me, but I keep a mental tally and make sure that I pick up the check myself. I don't blame Dan for keeping his own mental tally - if I had done all that for someone and gotten a cold shoulder, I would feel justified in being as pissed off as Dan. Maybe not quite as vocal, but I would definitely *think* everything he said.

    Regarding the whole issue of who pays: didn't Weasel cover this in his WWHM blog already, about the douchestick with the Applebee's gift card? The issue is not necessarily relative prosperity, but seeing how generous someone is. Hence the polite offers to pay and the gracious picking up of the check - or the gracious paying if the offer is accepted.

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  151. P.S. It's totally possible to be treated like a lady and still cover my own half of the bill.

    I'd rather date a guy who was sincerely interested in what I had to say, thought I was attractive without trying to stick his tongue down my throat at the first opportunity and was able to get along with my friends than someone who thought that paying for a movie ticket was a more important foundation to build a relationship on.

    But that's just me. I actually prefer dating friends, and agree with the sentiment that friends generally cover themselves. I won't ask a guy to do anything for me that I wouldn't be willing to reciprocate.

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  152. I understand why Laura brought up the money issue, she was explaining to Dan why she was upset in the first place, and as petty as it is, she was being honest and I can respect that. On the other hand, I see Dan's point of view, my boyfriend and I are what he would consider a very 2009-type couple. We share entertainment/food costs and we both contribute to supper by bringing something to the table (like tonight I'm bringing over sausage and cheese while he's got the mushrooms, asparagus and spinach covered). But if he's taking me out to see a movie or if I'm taking him out to see a movie, he'll pay or I will, respectively. Dan seems like a nice guy that's helpful and kind, but he definitely went on a bit of a rant there, so I'm assuming he's kind of a tight ass about this subject. In either case, the fact that they'd both easily write off their relationship based purely on a petty money issue when they both seem to enjoy the others company is what really boggles MY mind.

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  153. Hm, I guess Niels is still signed in on my computer. I'm sure he would agree though ;)

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  154. I havent read the comments but here's my two cents. It sounds like they had a date or two. It sounds like he was over her place and painted? Hello... if you have someone painting your apartment/home then yeah you can pony up the movie money and such not him.

    Ive been with the same guy for almost 10 years. Hey I pay for dinner and sometimes he does. We alternate. But if you have him doing chores for you already and you are bitching about the cost of a movie ticket and a drink, shame on you.

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  155. Where I come from, peeps pay for themselves. It has nothing to do with class. It was goddamn Star Trek, not dinner at the Hilton.

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  156. I always plan on paying if I take a woman out. I have no problem if she wants to split it, although I would rather 'take turns' if we do it that way. I think it's important to be flexible. I'm in a position right now where it's not a problem to pay--I have the money to do it, and I would like to because of that, but I guess it would be nice, though, to know a girl would share, if we have a nice time together, and I couldn't afford to pay for both of us all the time. Okay, that doesn't really say anything, other than, if you take someone out--you should plan on being ready to establish an understanding up front--don't get to the restaurant and wonder who's paying. That's just bad planning.

    Any points Dan had going into his last e-mail were shot with that oversensitive, whiny-ass rant. I can't really tell whether she's selfish, although it's somewhat implied, but, like I say, if Dan couldn't/wouldn't pay they needed to discuss that--it shouldn't be a surprise.

    Finally, and most irritatingly to me: Expecting a kiss? Dude, if she isn't looking at you expectantly, why would you want to kiss her anyway? Don't do me any fucking favors--if you don't want it, neither do I.

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  157. Uhh. If it's a first date, I usually pay my half of everything. I'm a girl. :O Dan sounds kinda nuts -- I would've probably been like "Haha, well I'm definitely glad we're not going out :D" instead of going off on a tirade. At the same time, Laura is dumb for expecting that she doesn't have to pay for anything, and kinda passive-aggressive.

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  158. On Dan's team. It may be a date, but if it's a first or second date I'm kind of keen on covering myself so there is no expectations of ANYTHING if I don't feel a spark, I've been on movie dates where guys have paid and therefore I "owed" them a kiss or more at the end of the night. FALSE.

    A movie ticket. A drink or two. Jesus, it may be a recession but even working part time I can cover myself and proudly.

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  159. They are both wrong.

    They should have agreed over who was paying for what BEFORE the date.

    She should have let it go, or brought it up in a polite fashion. Some people have different expectations about who pays for what. In the beginning of a friendship, these may come up, but that's expected, and there is no reason for that to cause friction if both parties are willing to deal with it evenhandedly. The fact that this evidently really festered with her does not speak well of her ability to communicate her expectations.

    He should have throttled back on that email, which makes him look like a defensive tool who thinks his shit don't stink.

    Nobody here was behaving like an adult.

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  160. OK. Sign me up for the Two Twats Team. I feel all the relevant points have already been covered and don't feel like repeating them.

    Things like this make me happy I haven't been dating for 15 years now. Personally, I'm in the Who-asks-pays crowd, mixed with a good dose of old-fashioned-ness. Yes, it's always nice if your date offers to pay their part, but it shouldn't be expected. The whole everybody pays their own way can work, but what if one person makes more than the other, and wants to take their date out somewhere they couldn't afford half of? Do they scratch that and only go places the one with the lower income can afford? It's a mess.
    I *like* some chivalry in my man. I know a lot of people these days don't see it, but it can convey respect and courtesy (all depends on the manner in which it's done). I don't feel it threatens my independence or femininity in any way (my husband would laugh so hard at that suggestion that he'd have to pick himself up from the floor). It doesn't mean I can't pay for our dinners/movies/whatever.
    Anyway. My 2¢.

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  161. I'm on Dan'a side for this one. She OFFERED. she shouldn't complain, esp seein as he doesnt sound to be a total jERK. He is right, us women complain that it is an unfair mans world, but when it comes down to it, we like it that way. We want them to pay and be gentlemen. We want Mr Darcy.

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  162. Gotta side with Dan here, as well.

    And yes, I agree, whomever does the inviting ought to pay for the evening, but at the same time, if she OFFERED to pay for something, she shouldn't be this upset over someone taking her up on it.

    I didn't actually think his response was out of order. Yes, it was highly detailed, but she was being super-picky, and I imagine he was a bit upset over that.

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  163. I'm siding with Dan here.

    I think the main reason why I'm on Dan's side is how hung up Laura is about two minor issues--a movie ticket and drinks that she OFFERED to pay for, on a date where Dan paid for most of everything else. Also how self-righteous she is about how men are SUPPOSED to pay for women.

    It is indeed 2009, and if we women want to expect equal treatment and equal opportunities, we should expect to have equal behavioral responsibilities too. If I were on a first date I'd split the costs, like I'd pay for movie tickets and he'll cover dinner. If you want to be an equal in a relationship I think you need to act like an equal too.

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  164. I'd say neither of them are mature enough to be in a relationship, if they're both going to get their knickers in a twist so easily.

    Equality, to me, means respecting and appreciating the other person. If someone helps you paint your house, you take them out somewhere. If someone buys you a movie ticket, you spring for the popcorn. If someone buys you dinner, next time you foot the bill.

    And IMHO, this applies whether we're talking a friendship OR a romantic relationship.

    Heck, it doesn't even have to apply to just money! My husband of 12 years regularly thanks me for making dinner and doing the pots and pans, and I thank him for doing the other dishes (he's disabled, so manhandling heavy kitchen stuff is beyond him). Respect and appreciation.

    I wouldn't give the time of day to someone (man or woman, date or friend) who didn't treat me that way. An example: My best friend's husband won't lift a finger to help her do housework, but he feels free to critique how well she keeps the house clean...he'd be out on his ass in 5 seconds with me. My husband can't houseclean, either, but he has a legit excuse, and above all doesn't CRITIQUE me for what I do (and often pushes me to get a cleaning lady, which I refuse).

    So yeah, I wouldn't touch Laura OR Dan with a ten-foot pole.

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  165. mr. mrs. fangfaceJuly 3, 2009 at 8:39 AM

    cakeinoz:

    So I take it you're not a fan of taking the high road, then? ;D

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  166. I have my own dating neuroses that I'm sure will land me on a website like this one day, but as far as the "paying issue" I find nothing more tacky than splitting the check at a nice resturant. If it's a "deal breaker" as some people above have suggested, by all means, let's pull out wads of cash or our individual debit cards. Let's spend time we could be spending getting to know each other instead bickering about whether we're going to split it down the middle or whether I'll take the dessert if she takes the appetizer.

    Dating is about courtesy and respect. The last thing that I want to do is disrespect my date and pay for her if she's morally against such things. Yet that kind of issue is almost a sure sign that person is too anal and focusing too much on appearances or perceived debt than simply having a good time.

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  167. Way to overcome the Jewish stereotype Laura, Dan!

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  168. Laura is an arse. I don't blame Dan for pulling out the stoppers and letting her have it, since she's not worth spending any further time thinking about.

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  169. Team Laura.

    As far as I'm concerned, the man pays for everything in any circumstance - and opens doors, pulls out chairs, orders for me at restaurants.

    Men pursue and women demure - it's biology. Pull out a calculator to split the bill at dinner and all of a sudden, in most women's eyes you're not a man anymore.

    But most guys with any reasonable degree of testosterone prefer to be expected to act like a fucking man.

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  170. "Tronner said...
    I find nothing more tacky than splitting the check at a nice resturant. If it's a "deal breaker" as some people above have suggested, by all means, let's pull out wads of cash or our individual debit cards. Let's spend time we could be spending getting to know each other instead bickering about whether we're going to split it down the middle or whether I'll take the dessert if she takes the appetizer."


    I'm glad I'm not alone! I was sitting there reading all these comments from woMEN saying how they always split the checks and all I was thinking was how tacky that sounds.

    I would be so embarrassed to go out on a nice date and then look like a complete tightass splitting the check.

    I mean, if you are sooooo morally against letting a guy pay for you, at least show some class and take the whole check, and then let him take the next one (hello..its an invitation for a second date). But I cant think of anything more tacky than sitting there with you cellphone caculator divinding the total and counting out your change. Laaammmee.

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  171. @ Anynomyous who called me fuctarded:

    You are a mysoginist jerk, regardless of your gender. The fact that you're willing to be supportive of someone who uses gender equality to save a few bucks just goes to show how selfish and narrow minded you are. I pity the people you go out with. Even though Laura could've been more polite and her willingness to communicate could've helped matters, Dan remains a douche. His behavior on the date may have been excusable, but his defense of said behavior is not.

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  172. Given the bit of info we have, I'm afraid I'll have to side with Dan on this one (I'm female, for the record). If Laura didn't want to pay for drinks, she shouldn't have offered. And if he paid for everything else, her getting her own damned movie ticket shouldn't be that big a deal - especially if she was having as much fun with him as her email said she was. The fact that she got upset that she paid for her own drink (after offering! the horror!) makes her seem, simply, ridiculous.

    I can't really blame Dan for responding the way he did. He probably felt used. Hell...it sure sounded like he was. If he was getting her friends stuff, too, it sounds like he went way above what should've normally been expected. One movie ticket and a drink was hardly going to break her bank.

    As for the "asker pays" debate... I always took it on a case by case basis. I always, ALWAYS offered to pay my share. Sometimes the guy said no. Other times he said okay. But either way, I never resented him for accepting my offer, and I never assumed from the get go that he'd pay for everything. Money can get tight, but that doesn't mean you should expect for someone else to do all the paying. Chances are it's tight for them, too.

    Did he overreact? Maybe. But in that situation, I probably would have too. I think it was justified. Her nitpicking over what she had to pay for just makes her sound like a pampered, selfish bitch.

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  173. I can't really reply to this by name, because it was posted anonymously. But I have a question to one of the female posters farther up.

    You said you feel that if a guy pays for everything early on it shows he's showing interest in you. Where is it written that women can't do similar (go halves, or whatever) for men for the same reason? Seems to me that doing so would show a certain generosity, and a little less "I'm a princess! Dote on me!"

    Just saying. *Shrug*

    (Yep, I'm female)

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  174. "You said you feel that if a guy pays for everything early on it shows he's showing interest in you. Where is it written that women can't do similar (go halves, or whatever) for men for the same reason? Seems to me that doing so would show a certain generosity, and a little less "I'm a princess! Dote on me!"

    Going halves doesnt show generosity. You are paying for your half and he is paying for his.

    I would NEVER give a second date to a guy who willingly accepts to take my money. It blows my mind that any girl would not have a problem with that.

    He shouldnt ask you out on a date and then make you pay for it. He is asking you on a date to get to know you, and hopefully start a relationship. To me, its a priviledge for him to get to take me out and if he wants to take me out, he better treat me right. By treat me right I dont mean take me to the most expensive restaurant in town, but he needs to treat me like a lady.

    I feel sorry for all of you that allow men to use "equality" and "feminism" as an excuse to let guys off the hook with chivalry.

    But then again, I am a true lady. I despise all the feminism garbage. I was raised with good old fashioned values and have waaay to much respect for myself to let a guy treat me like a friend (splitting checks) but then expect me to fall head over heels for him. I want a real man whos momma raised him right.

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  175. And the funny thing is..I have NEVER had a guy (who was not a friend) ask me to split a check at dinner or pay for my own movie ticket, and I've dated a lot of guys. Sure, when I was in a serious relationship I gladly paid the bill now and then, but NEVER on a first date.

    I dont know where you people find guys who are happy to split checks with you, because I know none of the guys I dated would ever take my money. I guess they just think I'm higher quality...

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  176. mr. mrs. fangfaceJuly 3, 2009 at 5:29 PM

    Anonymous 4:34: "He shouldnt ask you out on a date and make you pay for it."

    Which is why there's that whole "The asker is the one who pays." norm. Or are you not a fan of women asking men out on dates? :D

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  177. I'm going to side more with Dan. If I was out on a date and started getting the cold shoulder I wouldn't pay for your shit either. Sounds like she was wanting a free ride out of th deal. Also sounds like he paid for some of her friends stuff too. She shouldn't have gotten all pissy about the money thing and yes again as he points out she does keep bringing it up. Now for Dan - WTF? So when does going out on a date with a guy entitle them to a kiss, a piece of ass, etc?? It IS 2009 so pull your head outa yo butt dude!! That is pretty much it 2 out of 3 for Dan and 1 out of 3 for Laura.

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  178. @Tronner, SweetZippinChip: ooh. Look at Ms. Paying for myself is too hard and unfair! I can't tell the waiter to bill the orders separately. I have to take out a calculator. It's fussy. It costs time from quality interaction. When friends pay for themselves, it takes away their quality time and isn't some insignificant event. Let's inflate this issue more!

    Who pays isn't some major moral issue. It's just about fairness. There is no relevant reason what is fair between friends cannot be fair between people going out on a date. Fair is fair.

    This 'chivalry' reason is just tradition. There is no great reason to defend it beyond going with the flow.

    When friends go out together, the one who proposes the idea (the inviter) isn't expected to pay for everyone. They normally pay for themselves and have a good time. No good reason why the inviter should pay for the entire date either. It's just an idea for a good time. The notion the inviter should pay is another weak attempt to defend tradition.

    Feminists often argue over the oppression of 'patriarchy' and antiquated social norms and traditions. They deliberately go against the flow to promote a fairer, more equal social model. So making exception here is untenable. And seeing them go out of their way to attempt it anyway is, well, discouraging at least and hypocrisy at worst.

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  179. Oh dear god. If he said he expected to "get more" that's douchey, but expecting her to pay for herself? Suck it up, Laura. (And I'm female.)

    If you offer to help pay for your drinks and the guy accepts, you really can't complain.

    I'm a sex worker. I've dabbled in just about everything except stripping. Since I started, I've been kind of uncomfortable with letting guys pay for everything on dates. The parallels are way to obvious for me.

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  180. I'm a woman. I'm on Dan's side.

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  181. Dan's point of view seems to be that Laura may have been using him to paint her house and other favors. He didn't pay for her movie because she wasn't flirting with him.

    Laura's point of view is that Dan and she have gone on dates, and he's yet to pay once. She ofered to pay for her own drinks and he let her. That's not very sexy, though I can see why a guy might do this on a first date.

    Probably not the best way to get a second date though. But it didn't bother Laura enough that she refused his help painting her house, or planting flowers, or the trip to home depot.

    It sounds like there were several meals involved of which he picked up only part of the tab (for example, he paid 70% for one meal of which he was responsible for 50%. He paid 20% more than he should have and he's making shure he gets credit for it.)

    It is 2009 so he's not obligated. But giving the impression of being cheap isn't going to get Laura hot for tonsil hockey.

    Dan is real careful with his words, but when you boil them down you get "She wasn't giving me enough attention or kissing me and I don't buy tickets to movies with girls who do that." Then he tried to skimp out on the snacks... its not looking good for Dan except.

    Laura asked him to buy the snacks. That smells fishy. Second date, he doesn't buy tickets or pop corn I won't say a word, but it's also the last date.

    Assuming Dan is a stranger (not a friend) "letting" him help her with her house is taking advantage of the situation.

    It sounds like Dan is cheap. (It may be 2009 buddy, but you just keep that wallet shut tight because vaginas everywhere are closed for buisness too.)

    It sounds like Larua was using Dan.

    They're both psychotic.

    Laura needs to stop using men she's not interested in. She has no right to be offended when he didn't buy her meals. Its not like he wasasking her to pay for his meal too. But she was "letting" him paint her house.

    Dan needs to pry open his wallet. Keeping it under lock and key will never get good results. Not in 2009, not in 2020, not in 2070. He also needs to stick to painting his girl friends house, not some random woman's place he just met.

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  182. These people boggle MY mind. The first email from Dan was okay. Laura's response SHOULD have been something neutral - if she was not interested, despite the reason, she should have mentioned that she did not feel a spark, and let it go. BE DONE WITH IT! But after Laura's bratty response, he probably should have just let it go. No matter who deserves the blame in this particular situation, it is not the other's responsibility to 'tell it like it is.' They both wanted the last word. What is this 8th grade? This banter seems crazy to me.

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  183. I'm very surprised t see everyone "siding" with Dan. Neither of these peopl are WINNERS in my book, but to excuse his email by saying he was merely upset is unacceptable.

    I abhor the idea of splitting costs at dinner. I will always switch off whether with my SO or friends. I also treat my friends and SO with no expectation that it will be returned.

    My BF and I also recognize that we are in a LTR and are in different econoic situations. While I am in school and he is working (afte graduating), he insists on paying unless I expressly insist. Now he (an anthropology and sociology major) has always presented himself as more of a feminist than me but understands that that it isnt a power thing. He enjoys that he can treat me to good meals. If we eat at home, I'll buy groceries and prepare since that's what I can afford.

    I honestly wouldn't date someone who would NEVER pay for me. It's not femenisim or antifeminism. It's just personal preference. I enjoy men/women paying for my meals. Splitting dinner every time totally kills the mood with discussion of "Well I didn't want the appetizer. You did, and I don't want to have to pay for it" etc... People can get so butt hurt.

    And an FYI, I was the first to ask out every LTR I have ever had. And I tried to pay too.

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  184. Also, I really wish I could find a scientific article I read in my Animal Behavior class concerning Mate selection. It discussed several different aspects like women and men dating and how males seeming skimpy on dates (ie. not willing to pay for food, entertainment) was always seen as a negative to both Short Term or Long Term Dating success.

    Damnit.. Interesting article though. Surprised no one has thought to bring that angle up yet.

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  185. I'm actually the Significant other mentioned by "lookatmesmile" above.

    This issue is constantly under generous consternation and deconstruction by both social scientists and biologists alike.

    Lookatmesmile mentioned a few great points I'd like to accent on and I'd like to add a bit more commentary myself.

    I'd have to agree that neither of these parties are perfect people, but that's a bit silly to say... no one is. I'm not sure of Laura's exact situation but Dan saying that

    I work really hard and long hours and put up with a ton of crap for my dollars. I don't think you can say the same, yet you have an outrageous sense of self-entitlement that is pretty undeserved.

    is quite harsh. I'm not sure if this is true or not but either way I've never felt in a situation to tell someone if they work hard or not for their money if they work at all for it (Hell i've only had 2 different jobs, they all offer different challenges and daily struggles).

    Starting out I see no problem in the original asking party (whether man/woman/trans) offering to pay, in fact I believe it's very fair, and at the least splitting. In general I would see it as a bit odd for a male to have to pay the first date if they girl asked him out/date idea, especially in a situation of comparative economic ability.

    "lookatmesmile" and I are in a long term relationship now and have many great plans for the future, at this point I am gainfully employed whereas she's part time working and a student. I recognize that I have a lot of financial flexibility at this time living alone and out of school compared to her situation. So I personally offer now that I'm graduated to try and accommodate as many of the costs of meals and other activities and such when we are in town together.

    Travel at the moment is something we've been sharing... (aka i drive down to see her a couple hours away and every couple of weeks or so she does as well).

    Anyway I'd go on but this whole setup we seem to agree on wholeheartedly and it works for OUR relationship and OUR agreements at this time being.

    It's impossible to create a set of basic rules that will apply to every relationship as we all are in different stages and walks of life. The important thing is to make decisions that make both parties happy and feel they have autonomy in the decisions.

    It's true that "lookatmesmile" teases me a bit about being a bit more of a radical feminist than her (even though I'm a man) but..... she actually is more of a feminist than she realizes.

    Let me conclude with a basic definition of feminism according to the writer Bell Hooks.

    "Feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation and oppression"

    I'd also like to say that men being held to paying for every meal and every dating activity in a nation where the wage gap is closer and closer to closing is sexism and oppressive itself, and that both sides must come to an agreement to end that oppression of all the sexes.

    -Anonymous

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  186. O yea.... also.

    There are no reasons why anyone DESERVES a kiss or anything physical.

    From all the girls I talk with it seems their is unnecessary pressure for physical favors for being taken out and all.

    -anonymous

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  187. Jesus this sounds like a similar situation I was in about a month ago.

    In a nutshelll I had been dating this guy for a month or so. We had taken me out for one dinner in that time, nothing else. But we saw each other on weekends and sometimes a night during the week. I mentioned that I would like to go out more and do things instead of hanging around my apartment.

    So he books this expensive French restaurant in the city and comes over and picks me up and takes me there. When the bill comes around he looks at me, looks at the bill, looks at me, looks at the bill and then says "Do you wanna go halves?"

    "What?" I said "You're taking me out for dinner and you want to go halves?"

    He paid and afterwards we got into an argument and he called me a gold digging whore who has had millions of boyfriends who have all been millionaires apparently!

    I was so angry. I got rid of him the next day.

    Not only was he a tight arse (hence staying in all the time, living in a cheap share house and spending most of his money on triathlon gear and trips - which he gladly told me about all the time) he was also a premature ejaculator that took no compensatory measures to ensure my satisfation.

    A girl has to have a little sugar in the first stages of dating - and that sugar bowl was empty.

    In relation to Laura and Dan - honey if he helped you paint your house it is only polite to say thanks by taking him out. It's a better deal than to get a professional painter in. Dan - if some spoiled bitch writes you a shitty email about being petty with money, silence sometimes speaks louder than words.

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  188. It's stupid to expect the man to pay for everything because "that's how it used to be." Look around and see how little of our society is how it was, even 50 or 60 years ago.

    I'm a raging feminist. As such I expect that every man I meet will treat me with respect, courtesy, and kindness; I treat them with the same. I expect at the very least to pay for half of a date, unless he absolutely insists, in which case I thank him and drop it. Nothing kills the mood faster than money quibbles, as evidenced above.

    What my now-husband and I did is alternate. He pays for one, I pay for one. It's not as logical for a first or second date, but it works when you're going out a few times a week or more.

    I can't stand it when women whine about inequality and disrespect and then act like simpering morons. It isn't the 1950s. You both have jobs and responsibilities, so act like it.

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  189. "I was so angry. I got rid of him the next day."

    "Not only was he a tight arse (hence staying in all the time, living in a cheap share house and spending most of his money on triathlon gear and trips - which he gladly told me about all the time) he was also a premature ejaculator that took no compensatory measures to ensure my satisfation."

    "A girl has to have a little sugar in the first stages of dating - and that sugar bowl was empty."

    lol
    credibility demolished

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  190. Jessica: lol
    Look at the volume you write. You already know so much about me based on a single word! Are you ... God?

    More words: presume, preconceive. Meditate hours on those until you fully appreciate their meaning.

    Equality means everyone carries their own weight as much as anyone else. You clearly don't know what that means, because you hold yourself to a different standard and consider it wrong any way else.

    Good job!

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  191. cheap is just so unnatractive, and he was so cheap. theres is nothing wrong with chivalry

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  192. @8:44 Anon:
    Credibility demolished - by what? Putting up with his doucheyness too long before dumping him? He wouldn't spend money on her but needed triath gear & travel, was sexually unsatisfying and you think that her leaving him was somehow negative to her credibility? Your logic is wank-stained and baselessly juvenile.
    as for 9:20 Anon: "Mediate hours on those ..."
    Who's a bossy wee munt, then? Here's an imperative sentence for you: Lick my Taser, you intellectually-penurious, verbally-flatulent social maggot.

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  193. lol lick my battery.

    "I was so angry. I got rid of her the next day."

    "Not only was she a tight arse (hence staying in all the time, living in a cheap share house and spending most of his money on triathlon gear and trips - which she gladly told me about all the time) she has a loose vagina and took no compensatory measures to ensure my satisfation."

    "A guy has to have a little sugar in the first stages of dating - and that sugar bowl was empty."

    If a guy said that to you (or about you), his selfishness and petty insults should undermine his credibility in your eyes. He has issues.

    Your arguments and claims are overtly one-sided and unfounded. They don't pretend fair detachment or good reasoning. Hint: presumptions are not good reasoning.

    Logic is a demonstration of intelligence. Uncommon diction and empty threats/ad baculum fallacies are not. And persistent irrationality is proof against. You are fucktarded.

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  194. "I feel sorry for all of you that allow men to use "equality" and "feminism" as an excuse to let guys off the hook with chivalry."

    Hm. When did I ever say they TRIED to get me to pay for my share? They asked me out, no money mentioned. When the check would come, I'd offer to pay for my half. They had nothing to do with my choice to not seem like I was only there to see what they'd buy me.

    "To me, it's a priviledge for him to get to take me out..."

    "I guess they just think I'm higher quality..."

    *Nods* Yep. Like I said. "I'm a princess! Dote on me!"

    Careful there, honey. Your ego is showing.

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  195. Oh... Also...

    "...I know none of the guys I dated would ever take my money."

    Heh. I doubt you ever considered offering, so how would you know?

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  196. "You are fucktarded."

    I really love that the babies who post this stuff are such internet hard guys that they never leave their names. I'm willing to bet they couldn't ever say those things to a woman's face without imminent danger of a punch up.

    As for uncommon diction - you never considered that English may not be the person's first language, did you? So much for looking at everything logically and objectively. Fail.

    This recurrent insistence on logic is beginning to suggest a lack of emotion, particularly sympathy/empathy. One of the marks of psychopathic personalities is an absence of these feelings.

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  197. Dan's actions were questionable but Laura's response was definitely in poor taste. It's just money... if it continues to happen, then maybe bring it up... but it's rediculous to write a guy off just because he didn't pay for the movie ticket.

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  198. "I really love that the babies who post this stuff are such internet hard guys that they never leave their names. I'm willing to bet they couldn't ever say those things to a woman's face without imminent danger of a punch up."

    Look who's being an internet tough guy, expecting names and physical confrontation. This is the internet. Welcome!

    The internet is not a place of empathy. You're a big hypocrite to expect it. Psychology babble and speculation fail.

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  199. 11:27,
    You know well what I mean about your obvious inability to sign a name to your personal attacks and juvenilia. Be a man and sign your name, assclown. I don't "expect" names, but plenty of people do sign theirs when they believe in something. Sorry you can't grasp this fact. I don't expect physical confrontation here, you desperate wee melt, I'm pointing out that you clearly haven't the balls to mouth off like this in person because you know what would be coming to you.

    Dude, I've been to sites with plenty of empathy for people. That you don't know this or don't get it here means two things - you don't know the net as well as you like, and you don't get it here because nobody likes your pathetic self here. I still suspect the unfamiliarity and dislike of empathy connotes presentation of psychopathic tendencies. If you believe that general psychopathic expression is the point of the internet, you confirm the diagnosis.

    EB

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  200. Um, yeah, sorry, first date, dude pays. And the epistle he wrote about why she's shallow for expecting to be treated like a woman is...sad. It sounds like he felt bad about the movie, but instead of just saying "I'm sorry, I didn't know you worked that way, can we try again?" he insists on justifying his behavior.

    YES, I live in 2009. And if my fiancee hadn't paid for dinner and the movie on our first date, there wouldn't have been a second one. Note, however, that I offered to pay for both of our dinners on said second date, and thereafter, one of us buys dinner, one buys the movie.

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