Wednesday, July 1, 2009

One Bad Date

Today, PLFM takes a step back and lets two fighters duke it out.

Now, PLFM didn't get much backstory on today's case, but one thing is very clear:

There's some free planters sitting out on the corner somewhere in Baltimore.

Now, let's go over what we do know:

Dan and Laura recently went out on a date.

Maybe two, we're not really sure.

Initially, it sounds like Dan and Laura felt a little spark between one another.

But somehow, somewhere, the spark suddenly exploded, and both parties got burned.

And today, my friends, we sift through the ashes.

First up, we have Dan providing a little sunshine:

Laura,

I'm really sorry if I did anything to upset you. I was really happy to have met someone with a very silly sense of humor, open minded, attractive and jewish. I was excited that you are going to journey out to XXXX and just (and still) wanted to be helpful.

I'm home from work and running errands in the area. If you are around I will quickly pick the planters up and be on my way.

Cheers,


Dan


Hmmmm, Dan's email seems a little cloudy.

Perhaps Laura can provide some cleansing rain?

Dan,

You are a cool guy, but it boggles my mind that you walked up to the ticket booth and said, "1 for star trek" and then stepped aside so I could get my own ticket. Where I come from a guy pays for a woman in the beginning.

While I was shocked when you took the $ at the bar on Saturday, I recognized that I did offer.

You made me laugh so hard and I had a good time that I chose not to dwell on a petty $ issue, but then you did it again.

It's just not classy, especially when followed by a comment along the lines that you thought you'd get more, like a kiss or something when I went to say goodbye outside the theater.

Really?

I'm actually in and out all day. I can leave the boxes outside, like I mentioned, so you can pick them up. Does that work?


Laura

And now take cover my friends, because here comes Dan's big thunder!

Laura,

Thank you for writing back and being honest.

Allowing you to pay for your own ticket "boggles your mind", huh?


Well, I'll tell you what boggles MY mind. For some reason you have these outrageous expectations that a man can only be classy if he gives the woman he's interested in a total free ride.

You claim to choose to not dwell on a petty money issue, but that's exactly what you are doing. You actually chose to focus your emotions on whether I was picking up your bar tab instead of allowing you to possess a modicum of self reliance.

Where *I* come from, it is 2009 and its a great place to live. This is where women aren't looked at as 'the fairer (read "weaker") sex, but seen as equals to men. Its not the 1950's which was a time of one-income households, but a time of shared burdens.

Oh sure there are plenty of sugar daddies to be found out there, but how many of them will give you the same deep belly laughs where your cheeks hurt from smiling so hard? If you hold on to those outdated beliefs of yours, then you should also be eagar to service the man that is bankrolling you too, b/c that's what is expected from that type of exchange.

When I tried kissing you in the vestibule before the movie, you muttered a remark which you did not want to repeat, but now I understand it was likely about accepting your previous offer of buying your own drink. I'd say that's painfully shallow, forgetful, and hurtful that you so easily overlooked my previous generosity.


I feel obligated to recap the charges I DID pay for since you are clearly caught up on the two that I didn't.

Starting with paying for that second slice of pizza you split with Bob the first night meeting you, there was your lunch after the park, 70% of that burger meal, buying our breakfast the morning of Lowes, getting a six pack for you & Christy, graciously supplying greeeens the whole time I was with you, and even after you went ice cold b/c I didn't pony up your movie ticket, i STILL covered the popcorn and soda even though you asked me so sourly.

Now lets talk about class and "classy". One of the reasons why I didn't pay for your movie ticket was b/c I wasn't sure what was going on in your head up to that point in the day. You had stopped being flirtatious. The whole walk to the theater you were cold to me. I was feeling rather unappreciated and also somewhat confused by how you were behaving.


I showed the quality of my character and had been a complete gentleman throughout by running out specially for drinks, running up and down the stairs for water, being genuinely concerned for your friend's well being, making your neighbor's children laugh, entertaining your friends and even helping you paint!

I'd say that's pretty high class, and had you shown me some interest and not gotten caught up in that small minded thinking I most certainly would have bought the movie ticket too. THAT is just the kind of guy that I am.

Amongst my friends and family, I'm well known as being very generous with my money and most especially generous with my time. So after the movie when I said that I thought I'd get more of a response from you, or at the very least a goodbye kiss, yeah, REALLY.

Overall, you need to re-examine the values you look for in a man. It boggles my mind that you squashed something that I thought could have been really great between us b/c your movie wasn't on my dime.


I work really hard and long hours and put up with a ton of crap for my dollars. I don't think you can say the same, yet you have an outrageous sense of self-entitlement that is pretty undeserved.

I'm bummed it didn't work out between us, but not too bad since I see you are quite superficial and not worth a quality guy like myself.

One last thing, you can keep those planters. It will almost cover the cost of the burger and movie ticket while saving me travel time and keeping my dignity.

Best,

Dan

Hmmmm.

Pretty harsh email there, Dan.

I don't know though folks, this could be a tough one.

Was Laura wrong for sparking the money issue?

Was Dan a cheap asshole? Or was he an asshole for the reason he was being cheap?

Or both? Or neither?

Either way, from now on I'm pretty sure vaginas will slam shut around Dan like his penis was selling vacuum cleaners.

Discuss.

248 comments:

  1. I'm also siding with Dan. I don't think I've ever had a guy pay for me on a first date, or really ever. I always expect to split things. If a guy ever paid for dinner I would pay for dinner in the future. You see, I'm one of those modern women who actually acts like a modern woman.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Ok in my opinion, some of the things he said were harsh, but if she had such a good time with him a few bucks over a cinema ticket shouldn't be a problem! After all (like he said) this is 2009 and if women want to be treated like equals then we should act like equals, sure its nice for a guy to open a door for us, and maybe even pull a seat out for us in a restaurant, so going dutch (paying half each) shouldn't be a problem. She's just being shallow and old fashioned.

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  3. Ugh! I hate it when girls EXPECT to be paid for. I think it is on whoever asked the other other out. Sorry, I think Laura is a petty bitch. Totally on Dans side here... which is pretty unusual.

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  4. And throughout the whole thing, I'm only left wondering what planters are.

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  5. I dunno if someone said this already, but, money issues aside, the fact he wouldn't pay for the ticket looks like he was afraid to aknowledge that she was his date.

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  6. Dan dodged a bullet.

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  7. I'm a woman and barring other unknown information, I have to side with Dan. His original email to her was polite, and her response was incredibly rude. Only then did he go over the top. Here's the way I see it: if it's a first date, many people believe the man (or at least the asker) should pay. That's not a universal belief by any means, but it's common enough. I've had MEN tell me "If the guy doesn't pay on the first date, don't see him again. He's not that into you." So I could see why Laura would have a reasonable expectation he would pay on the first date. But she's not that invested so early so why the vitriolic response detailing all his faults? A simple "I'm sorry, didn't feel a spark. Planters are in X location. Best wishes." is the classiest response.

    But based on all the things Dan claimed he did for her in his reply, it WASN'T a first date and they had been out several times before. At what point does the man stop paying? After one date? Three? A month? Opinions on the equality v. chivalry issue vary, and it was myopic and immature (at best) for Laura to assume he would pay everything, all the time. His response was a little extreme but it sounded like his feelings were hurt she would dump someone who she apparently liked over an $8 movie ticket and a $10 cocktail.

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  8. This letter doesn't belong here. If I wasn't already spoken for, I'd be happy to meet Dan.

    Signed,
    Blue Collar Feminist

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  9. I'm on team Dan. Laura sounds pretty shallow and thin-skinned.

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  10. Most of the men on this website are clearly insane, but not Dan. There are a lot of things in Dan's email that I wouldn't have written, but I liked a lot of his email and can well understand his need to vent.... Laura's email was pretty offensive.

    As for the rest of you who say things like: "I'm sorry, but the man pays for the first few dates", I would like to suggest that you not adopt such an authoritative tone on the subject. Sure, if that's how you want your men to act, that's your prerogative, but for the love of God don't LECTURE the men about it, because there are PLENTY of women who think "the man pays" is a stupid and offensive rule. (my current gf included, who is a totally kick ass babe who happens to make more money than I do anyway... we take turns paying for things)

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  11. Hell, I pay for over 50% of the stuff my SO and I do. I just paid for us both to go do Jamaica, for pete's sake, and I make less than $20 an hour (a fair amount less - retail, what can you do?) but I usually don't mind because I make more than he does. I have more bills, true, but I also tend to be skating less on a fine edge - money wise.

    I don't think it's a gender thing. I really firmly think if one partner is making significantly more money/has more fun money, it's nice for them to treat more often. I feel guilty making him pay when I know that I've got more in my checkbook. We do go out dutch fairly often. I'll just treat when he's brokey mcbrokerton and I still want to go out. :) Seems fair!

    My ex-husband made 3 or 4x the amount of cash I did and we did everything dutch or my treat. It got old in a hurry... mostly just because he'd get a new car or a new mac and then pull out the broke card ("if you want to go, you'll have to take us") when I wanted to see a movie. Lame.

    I'm siding with Dan on this one. She sounds like a royal pain with entitlement issues. There is nothing wrong with going dutch!

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  12. 70% of your burger meal?! LMAO He's got every dime he's shelled out documented - like "girls tell me I'm cheap, I will cover my bases here by journaling every dollar I spend. Yeah, that'll show 'em (what a loser I am)."

    As for Princess, if you offered to split the bar tab, you can't be dismayed when the dude takes your money.

    Verdict: You're BOTH cheap and passive-aggressive. Could have been a beautiful love/hate relationship.

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  13. I totally agree with Dan, totally. Scabby, scabby lady.

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  14. His lenthly "epistle" is a little bit psychotic.

    He thinks she's presumptuous or whatever for expecting him to pay. A $10 movie ticket? Is he that tight? I could make a joke about 2 jews arguing over money...Times are tough but they're not THAT tough, are they?

    A guy (I am one) should want to pay, he's supposed to be taking the active iniative role in dating, no? That probably hasn't changed in 5,000 years, no matter what year it is now.

    She is a little bitch to make such a big deal out of it...just let it fly, maybe he's a good guy anyway and he's a little bit of a tightwad...or maybe it's a one off thing, or who knows? You can't expect the other person to be absolutely perfect in every way, can you?

    But his diatribe and analysis (cold to him on the way from the car to the movie theatre?, maybe she had nothing pressing to say?)....people like that usually aren't much fun. "Where else can you get belly laughs that make your sides hurt!"...way to flatter yourself.

    They both sound like a lot of fun.

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  15. first, let me say I'm female. She was definitely in the wrong! Did she actually send you this exchange thinking it would make him look like the jerk? I admit the email was a little lengthy, but it seemed a little tongue-in-cheek to me. To offer to pay for your own drinks and then get pissed when he agrees is completely lame and gives girls a bad rap in general. Sounds to me like he's incredibly lucky to have gotten out when he did!

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  16. To all the people posting Jew jokes, it's not funny, Jews aren't people, they're pizzas. As for this I'm on Team Dan.

    Though I do think his final (?) email is a bit over the top, it's somewhat justified given her outrageously rude response to his first email.

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  17. I have to say that I am 100% with Dan on this one. Yes, I agree that he went overboard in his letter. But I can also clearly see why he is so upset. My reasons for taking Dan's side are:

    All she had to complain about with him is that he didnt pay for a movie ticket. From reading his letter, he had already helped her out quite a bit by painting and running errands, and had already spent money on her and her friends for other things such as beer and food.

    The feeling I get is not that he didn't pay for the ticket due to cheapness or being a jerk, it was probably because he was starting to feel used or taken advantage of due to how she was treating him. Maybe he did not word it correctly by writing that he was "expecting" a kiss, but I do not think that he is totally wrong in that either. He did not say he expected sex, just a kiss. And honestly, if you do not like a guy enough to kiss him after him doing all of those things for you, then why are you going out on a date with him anyway? By that stage in the game, a woman already knows if she is interested in a man or not, and if she wasn't they should have not been "dating" and she should have told him she liked him as a friend, and not expected him to pay.

    How many of you would take someone out to run errands, help them paint, spend money on them etc, and then just continue to do and do and do after they responded coldly and showed no interest in you? How do you suppose she was treating him while they were out, after reading her letter to him? Not once did she say THANKS for the things he did do, and when he tried to talk to her in his first letter, she attacked him like a self-absorbed wackjob who thinks everyone owes her something.If someone (even just a friend) had come over and helped me paint and run errands, I would have asked to take them out on my dime as a "Thank you", and given them a nice hug afterward and made them feel appreciated.

    Either way, who pays really is not important; nor is it the issue here, IMO. The issue is that for some people (like Laura) nothing you can do is ever enough, you will always owe them more and you will always fall short of fulfilling their unending expectations.

    Dan needs to breathe a sigh of relief and move on, glad in the knowledge that he got out and won't be taken advantage of by her any longer. Laura needs to grow up and realize that the world doesn't revolve around her, and that there is more to men than what you can use them for or get out of them.

    Dating common sense 101

    1. It shouldnt matter who pays, as long as nobody is using the other financially. These days, anything goes depending on the situation. If who is paying has to be an issue, there are bigger problems than who is paying.
    2. If you focus on superficial things, you will have a superficial relationship.
    3. The only thing in this world anyone owes anyone else is respect.

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  18. people should discuss this beforehand. everyone expects something different. i expect my date to pay the first couple dates, and any date that he asks for after that. sorry, but i'm a little old school. i also want my door opened.

    if we make it through enough dates where i feel comfortable with you (read: you're going to get laid this time), i have no problem shouldering the date, be it chilling out shooting patron, ordering take out, and playing poker, or spending four hours cooking a three course meal complete with wine and dessert.

    HOWEVER- i'm not going to do that on a first OR second date.

    that being said, i've gone on first dates where the man didn't spend a dime, or much more than a dime, but opted to go somewhere free, like a gallery, or low-key, like coffee. and i'm fine with that too- nobody has to figure out whether we're switching gender roles, and nobody has to wonder if there will be any unreasonable expectations.

    anytime where it isn't clearly spoken that it's a date, i am prepared to go dutch. and it sounds like there was at some point some confusion as to whether she was treating him as a date or just someone she was hanging out with. so, i'm siding with dan on this one.sounds like laura didn't make her expectations clear, and pulled a classic passive-aggressive by waiting until the next day to call him out. dans answer was overblown, but yeah, he had a point.

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  19. This is a tough call, as a woman, I think I would be a little, er, confused if I went out with a guy twice in one week and he didn't pay for either date.

    Actually, I did go out with a guy once, it was our first time out and he invited me to dinner, after dinner he expected me to pay for the ENTIRE date... and he had chosen the restaurant, an expensive seafood place I had never been to and had never heard of. I told him if he actually expected me to pay for a $50+ meal, then he should also expect never to see me again. Well, he called (or emailed) I can't remember a few days later, but I didn't respond, and then he got all weird about my non-response and I replied that I had been clear that if I paid for that meal I would not go out with him again, sheeesh, he thought I was a total bitch.

    I'm sorry, but early in a relationship a man has to show his interest some how. I'm not saying that men have to pay for everything in the 21st century, but they have to be doing something to make my life better/easier or else it's not worth it. I agree, there's not enough info here to pass judgement, but I can see how she was confused, and he's obviously got some issues surrounding his money because his response seemed way out of line. If he was really into her, he would have been more understanding.

    This is the kind of thing that should have been discussed in person, emails always make it worse, because I can't tell if the chick was being a bitch or just trying to explain her position.

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  20. I'm actually from Baltimore and can guess these kids probably live in Pikesville. What's with the "Jewish Times" personals etc? For a blog community that celebrates diversity, why shouldn't you say a priori this hookup on the basis of jewishness is stupid? Honestly wondering.

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  21. Unless a woman has issues, she doesn't just go gold and distant out of nowhere.

    Also, here's where the 'nice guy' issue causes trouble. Being nice with strings attached is what women don't like. Being nice because you are, and you fgenuinely respect and like someone, that's what we like. Now you know the difference!

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  22. Whew.. Dan, be glad you're not with that bitch.

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  23. These two? Pissy little twits. Get over it, both of you!

    As far as all that date stuff goes, for me it's like this:

    If someone asks ME on a date, I expect that *they're* the one paying. If I ask someone out on a date, I expect that *I'm* the one paying.

    I've been on dates before where I've expected that I would be paying for myself, and have been surprised by the other person paying for me.

    I've been with my boyfriend for almost 8 months now and he still pays for dinner and movies. But it's not a one-sided thing. Ever since I was interested in him I woud also pay for things. Like I would order pizza for us when he came home from work and pay for it, or buy him food or clothes. It balances out into a pretty equal partnership.

    Him paying for things like meals and movies and whatnot shows me that he has no issues in caring for me.

    And I like that. :)

    ~The delirious Vegas Pirate

    ReplyDelete
  24. I have been dating the same guy for a little over 2 years. We moved in together after about 6 months, and I proceeded to pay half of all the bills, rent, electric, cable, water. We both lived there, both using the utilities, so it was our responsibility to pay. He knows that I feel very strongly about taking care of my own bills, even though I don't really make much money. That said, he does tend to pay for most of our dinners out, movies, or whatever as far as entertainment goes. I do pay for these things, but not as often. He has no problem with that, as he makes at least 3 times my annual salary, loves me, and wants us to be able to experience a good time!I always make sure he knows how much I appreciate it, and that is probably one reason why he doesn't mind footing the bill for our entertainment 80% of the time.

    The fact that she offrered to pay, and then was pissed he accepted shows she is not a person of quality character. The fact that he thought he was gonna get "more of a response" which I think we all know means he wanted a little action, and then proceeded to LIST everything he had paid for shows he lacks character as well! Too bad they couldn't get past this....they sound perfect for each other in the sense that they both are so tight they could turn coal into diamonds in their asses in a matter of weeks. Which, ironically, would fix the problem!

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  25. They both sound pretty dumb, but I'm with Dan.

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  26. Yeah, I think that the dude was a bit wacko (and perhaps more than a tad egotistic :P) in his letter, but then again that woman has her priorities out of whack too. I can understand being fed up with her quickly, especially if she was already being cold to her before reaching the theater -- I think I agree with those who think she just wanted to find fault.

    I...I feel really, really bad for this but I almost want to make a Jewish joke here (Dan notes that she's Jewish in the first letter). I know I shouldn't but the temptation is really great here.

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  27. sc i think you overreacted the guy does have a point...now maybe he wrote much but it came out spontenuously 'cause you insulted him...

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  28. laura you are the one who has issues

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  29. You shouldn't expect somebody to pay for your drinks or your ticket. It'snakin to expecting sex after a date. Both are ridiculous attitudes that reinforce out-dated stereotypical gender roles

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  30. I'm a woman and I'm siding with Dan on this one. His response was well written and made many valid points that should have opened any questioning ladies' eyes. So many girls posting comments here are agreeing with the "yeah, first date- man pays." Are you serious? Where do you get these standards? Do you really hold yourself in such high esteem that you are always the "catch" and should be held on a pedestal from square one? If she were expected to pay for BOTH tickets right off the bat, THAT might be a little more than any "modern woman" could handle, but they went Dutch. There is nothing wrong with that.

    The passive aggressive nature behind offering to pay for your own drinks and then getting upset about it... that speaks for itself. It's juvenile and so typically female. Stop it. It's annoying and NO ONE likes it.

    From the looks of things, this wasn't some freeloading douche just looking for a meal ticket. He'd paid for things in the past and everything looked pretty well balanced. Laura seems like a petty crybaby who was born with a silver spoon in her mouth. I can just envision her with her arms crossed and pouting for hours and leaving Dan to -guess- why she was so upset. Perhaps that standoffish behavior is a sign that perhaps she possessed a modicum of guilt in knowing that her behavior was unwarranted and childish.

    All in all, this is indeed a modern society but it is also a struggling economy. Let's step back and have a look at that and maybe a little dignity and self respect as well. Perhaps there will be a day when antiquated dating standards will be pushed aside and two people can see each other for more than the size and generosity of their pockets.

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  31. Man...I read this stuff and it amazes me that there are some women in the world that hate men so much, they can't empathize at all with them.

    The reason we like going dutch on dates is because we have to go on A LOT of bad dates before we meet the right one.

    I've been on dates where the women has asked me, "What's the most expensive gift you ever bought a woman?". So I'm a walking ATM? I told her HIV. Yes, I had to pay for that date.

    I went on a date where a woman racked up $120 in appetizers without consulting me first. Then I got to find her making out with other guy.

    Sure, your going to say we pick the wrong women. But these were all women that seemed normal.

    Even after all this, these same "ladies" won't give a shit because to them, they deserve that treatment.

    ReplyDelete
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  44. Going by his side of the story: she doesn't flirt with him, so he doesn't pay for the ticket. Since he is clear in his later messages that not paying for the ticket was his way of getting even with her for the lack of flirtation, the only explanation for his initial email where he claims no knowledge about what could have made her upset is that he is a manipulative douche.

    It is a classic response: the guy, after being passive aggressive, and consequently being dumped, writes to the girl that he has no idea what he did to upset her, but here he is, apologizing nonetheless.

    ReplyDelete
  45. I don't think it's about the money, but the gesture. It depends on what the social standard is, I guess. Where I come from, if a group of friends goes to the movies one person pays and the others give that person their share later. If two people talk to each other while waiting then pay separately it means that they aren't friends, they are just people that started a conversation while waiting in line.

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